|
|  |
| |
|
| | The Let's Form a Startup! Network is not currently active and cannot accept new posts | | Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | Views: 630 | | May 02, 2005 6:46 pm | | Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # | 
Lawrence Sinclair | | An associate of mine, and I, are looking into locations to start a new IT operation in India. The two places we have in mind are Goa and Bangalore. One of us will be in India in two weeks to meet with people and scope out opportunities.
We are based in San Francisco and New York. What we have in mind is a small operation where founding members of a venture will work together with a few others in the Indian office, getting a new business off the ground before bringing it online in the US. We see India as a place that enables us to self-fund a new startup, or bring it to a point where we can seek venture funding on favorable terms.
If there are others out there who are interested in sharing facilities and other infrastructure, and setting up a new business, please contact me.
An office in India can be run for about $5000 a month, including a few employees. There are even more economies to scale if a few people get together and share an office, internet connections, accounting and legal services.
I actually plan to work in the office myself for a while. So I have paid particular attention to the option of setting up an office in Goa, a beautiful seaside region famous for its Portugese style architecture and beaches. Wages are lower there, and if wages comparable to Bangalore were paid, I think there would be no problem recuiting anyone in India to work there.
Please let me know if you are interested in partnering on this idea or have advice.
Yours Sincerely,
Lawrence SinclairPrivate Reply to Lawrence Sinclair | | May 03, 2005 12:38 am | | re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
>We are based in San Francisco and New York. What we have in mind is a small operation where founding members of a venture will work together with a few others in the Indian office, getting a new business off the ground before bringing it online in the US. We see India as a place that enables us to self-fund a new startup, or bring it to a point where we can seek venture funding on favorable terms.
>
Very interesting and timely -- I've been thinking along these very same lines myself. Why spend all the time and effort doing 'Dog 'N Pony' shows for US VC who are for the very most part CLUELESS? And then even if you are 'lucky'
and do get funded, you'll most certainly still get stung with a horrible valuation.
Thanks, but no thanks. Been there, done that. Better to see if you can bootstrap like this in India and possibly forgo the need for VC or as you said, if you need it, get it on your terms.
When I think back to how much of my personal funds were blown on my last startup (and I wasn't frivilous - I squeezed every penny until Abe bled), I only wish I had a fraction of it now - but at that time (circa 2000) India was not nearly as viable an option as it is now.
And do I even need to mention the fact that 'India' makes it fun and fresh -- much better than dealing with anal-retentive, tassled-loafer wearing lemmings on Sandhill road.
>If there are others out there who are interested in sharing facilities and other infrastructure, and setting up a new business, please contact me.
>
Are you setting this up as an incubator or to share resources or do you have a particular product in mind or
business in mind?
>An office in India can be run for about $5000 a month, including a few employees. There are even more economies to scale if a few people get together and share an office, internet connections, accounting and legal services.
>
By employees you mean some software engineers as well?
Hmm, fascinating. And here I was thinking I'd have to bail out of California from all the taxes, ridiculous cost of doing business. Instead, it seems that I stay here, move development to India and spread my time between two countries - I get to travel, meet new people, experience a new culture and save money. And it's amazing, I was thinking that for my last venture, my monthly payroll tax was far more than the cost to staff an office in India.
>I actually plan to work in the office myself for a while. So I have paid particular attention to the option of setting up an office in Goa, a beautiful seaside region famous for its Portugese style architecture and beaches. Wages are lower there, and if wages comparable to Bangalore were paid, I think there would be no problem recuiting anyone in India to work there.
>
What's the cost of living like over there? Specifically, what's it cost for nothing extravagant, just a small condo/ apartment, decent food (meaning balanced diet and safe to eat), etc.?
- TravisPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 03, 2005 1:57 am | | re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # | 
Abhinav Goyal | | Nice concept - starting in Goa. Replies inline marked [Abhinav].
>And do I even need to mention the fact that 'India' makes it fun and fresh -- much better than dealing with anal-retentive, tassled-loafer wearing lemmings on Sandhill road.
>
[Abhinav] Every place has its problems - India has beauraucrats, politicians and custom officials. So, keep that in mind while taking the decision.
>
>By employees you mean some software engineers as well?
>Hmm, fascinating. And here I was thinking I'd have to bail out of California from all the taxes, ridiculous cost of doing business. Instead, it seems that I stay here, move development to India and spread my time between two countries - I get to travel, meet new people, experience a new culture and save money. And it's amazing, I was thinking that for my last venture, my monthly payroll tax was far more than the cost to staff an office in India.
[Abhinav] Now that might be true :)
>
>>I actually plan to work in the office myself for a while. So I have paid particular attention to the option of setting up an office in Goa, a beautiful seaside region famous for its Portugese style architecture and beaches. Wages are lower there, and if wages comparable to Bangalore were paid, I think there would be no problem recuiting anyone in India to work there.
[Abhinav] No, I don't think there will be a problem convincing people to move to Goa. Heck, if you pay me Bangalore's salary in Goa, I'm ready to take the next flight to Dabolim. :)
>>
>
>What's the cost of living like over there? Specifically, what's it cost for nothing extravagant, just a small condo/ apartment, decent food (meaning balanced diet and safe to eat), etc.?
[Abhinav] Operating costs for a non-extravagant living - 300 USD should be more than enough.
Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | May 03, 2005 9:42 pm | | re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Abhinav Goyal wrote:
> Nice concept - starting in Goa. Replies inline marked [Abhinav].
>
>And do I even need to mention the fact that 'India' makes it fun and fresh -- much better than dealing with anal-retentive, tassled-loafer wearing lemmings on Sandhill road.
>
>
>[Abhinav] Every place has its problems - India has beauraucrats, politicians and custom officials. So, keep that in mind while taking the decision.
>
Thanks for sharing this. I agree, we do need to realize that India or any place isn't a paradise, there will be pro's and con's so we need to go in with a realistic and flexible attitude.
>By employees you mean some software engineers as well?
>Hmm, fascinating. And here I was thinking I'd have to bail out of California from all the taxes, ridiculous cost of doing business. Instead, it seems that I stay here, move development to India and spread my time between two countries - I get to travel, meet new people, experience a new culture and save money. And it's amazing, I was thinking that for my last venture, my monthly payroll tax was far more than the cost to staff an office in India.
>
>[Abhinav] Now that might be true :)
>
Obviously, I couldn't afford as many people but when I added up the salaries, PAYROLL tax and benefits, I could have spent a fraction of the money in India that I did in Silicon Valley.
Worse, although I paid my guys (and girls) a solid salary - $80's to $120's - they were not happy, because the cost of living in this area is so high and it was just par for other companies or even less at the time.
Imagine paying far less to someone who is happy and appreciative to receive market rate or above market rate like Bangalore rates in Goa.
>I actually plan to work in the office myself for a while. So I have paid particular attention to the option of setting up an office in Goa, a beautiful seaside region famous for its Portugese style architecture and beaches. Wages are lower there, and if wages comparable to Bangalore were paid, I think there would be no problem recuiting anyone in India to work there.
>
>[Abhinav] No, I don't think there will be a problem convincing people to move to Goa. Heck, if you pay me Bangalore's salary in Goa, I'm ready to take the next flight to Dabolim. :)
>
Can you share some of the main areas in India for biz and the pro's cons, such as costs of living, salaries, amenties, eletrical power/internet connectivity/infrastructure, cultural attitudes, weather, ease of travel, proximity of airports, etc.?
1. Mumbai
2. Bangalore
3. Hyperabad
4. Goa
5. ??
6. ??
>What's the cost of living like over there? Specifically, what's it cost for nothing extravagant, just a small condo/ apartment, decent food (meaning balanced diet and safe to eat), etc.?
>
>[Abhinav] Operating costs for a non-extravagant living - 300 USD should be more than enough.
>
That's nice! If I had known that when I was licking my wounds, I would have moved there, had a great time, had a chance to get the flavor of India and saved a boatload of money versus living in the Bay Area.
- TravisPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 03, 2005 11:17 pm | | re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Lawrence Sinclair | | We are also researching Cochin in Kerala state.
> Travis wrote:
>
>Can you share some of the main areas in India for biz and the pro's cons, such as costs of living, salaries, amenties, eletrical power/internet connectivity/infrastructure, cultural attitudes, weather, ease of travel, proximity of airports, etc.?
>
>1. Mumbai
>2. Bangalore
>3. Hyperabad
>4. Goa
>5. ??
>6. ??
>Private Reply to Lawrence Sinclair | | May 04, 2005 4:28 am | | re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Nitin Sharma | | You can probably think of 2 tiers when it comes to Indian offshoring/outsourcing locations.
1st Tier :-
1. Bangalore
2. Hyderabad
3. Pune
4. Gurgaon
5. Chennai
2nd Tier :-
1. Kolkatta
2. Nagpur
3. Mysore
4. Chandigarh
5. Noida
6. ....
There could a lot more in the 2nd Tier as u mentioned Cochin, Goa. If your main aim is to cut operational costs, yes should go for 2nd tier or even other smaller cities. But if it also includes attracting the best talent, then u might want to think again.
About internet facilities, etc. the general BSNL (Largest Indian Telephone Operator) network laid across the country is quite good. So you should not have problem in any place as such, although the time to set up may differ. Thats where the 1st Tier cities would probably stand apart.
Infra, transport will be a problem in certain areas. Also places without direct international flight will post some challenge for you if u plan to visit frequently. This ofcourse is taking into view that the domestic air travel is improving leaps n bounds and many non-metro cities will soon start having international flights.
Read the book by Paul Davies "Whats this India Business" for more detailed analysis. Im reading it myself !
-Nitin
> Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
> We are also researching Cochin in Kerala state.
>
>
>> Travis wrote:
>>
>>Can you share some of the main areas in India for biz and the pro's cons, such as costs of living, salaries, amenties, eletrical power/internet connectivity/infrastructure, cultural attitudes, weather, ease of travel, proximity of airports, etc.?
>>
>>1. Mumbai
>>2. Bangalore
>>3. Hyperabad
>>4. Goa
>>5. ??
>>6. ??
>>Private Reply to Nitin Sharma | | May 04, 2005 5:21 am | | re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # | 
Abhik Biswas | | Extemely facinating idea... I have been in the high tech industry in India since 1990 after graduating in the US. In the last few years I have also seen the advent of Indo - US VC firms, who specialize in funding companies which are working accross India and the US.
I have also over the years learnt that it is not true that India is a destination for cheap engineering alone... but here is a significant talent base in other aspects which also contribute to a successful VC funding and interesting valuations.
I would be willing to chat on this offline for those who are interested...
Abhik
> Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
> An associate of mine, and I, are looking into locations to start a new IT operation in India. The two places we have in mind are Goa and Bangalore. One of us will be in India in two weeks to meet with people and scope out opportunities.
>
>We are based in San Francisco and New York. What we have in mind is a small operation where founding members of a venture will work together with a few others in the Indian office, getting a new business off the ground before bringing it online in the US. We see India as a place that enables us to self-fund a new startup, or bring it to a point where we can seek venture funding on favorable terms.
>
>If there are others out there who are interested in sharing facilities and other infrastructure, and setting up a new business, please contact me.
>
>An office in India can be run for about $5000 a month, including a few employees. There are even more economies to scale if a few people get together and share an office, internet connections, accounting and legal services.
>
>I actually plan to work in the office myself for a while. So I have paid particular attention to the option of setting up an office in Goa, a beautiful seaside region famous for its Portugese style architecture and beaches. Wages are lower there, and if wages comparable to Bangalore were paid, I think there would be no problem recuiting anyone in India to work there.
>
>Please let me know if you are interested in partnering on this idea or have advice.
>
>Yours Sincerely,
>
>Lawrence Sinclair Private Reply to Abhik Biswas | | May 04, 2005 7:00 am | | re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # | 
Rajiv Sharma | | Hello
You could setup a unit in Goa or Cochin or whichever place you like but the quality manpower will not be available.
Bangalore on the other side has a higher cost ratio and living standards but there are far more comforts working here.
The net connectivity, power etc are better off here.
Goa is a nice place to holiday but not that serious for business. Bangalore has become the #1 silicon valley in the world.
Also like abhinav pointed USD 300 may suffice for a fresher or low level guy but to get a good hard core guy its going to take more money.
All the best in the venture
Cheers
Rajiv
> Travis wrote:
> > Abhinav Goyal wrote:
>> Nice concept - starting in Goa. Replies inline marked [Abhinav].
>>
>>And do I even need to mention the fact that 'India' makes it fun and fresh -- much better than dealing with anal-retentive, tassled-loafer wearing lemmings on Sandhill road.
Private Reply to Rajiv Sharma | | May 04, 2005 11:03 am | | re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Abhinav Goyal | | 1. Bangalore
- good talent base
- poor infrastructure - roads and electricity problems
- other things are ok
2. Bombay(Mumbai)
- talent base not as big as Bangalore
- hugely crowded
- ok in all other regards
- Same holds for Chennai except that weather sucks!
3. Hyderabad/Noida/Gurgaon
- talent base good but not as big as Bangalore
- good in most respects - growth better planned than Bangalore and hence can scale better
All other places - Goa, Cochin, Mysore are not big cities (Neither are Noida/Gurgaon but proximity to Delhi helps) and hence have more problems in terms of talent base and in some cases, infrastructure. Paying Bangalore salaries may work though.
Calcutta is also making strides in IT. Might be an interesting place to consider to consider though the city is very crowded.
One big point to keep in mind though - India basically offers a cost advantage and nothing else. Much cheaper skilled labour (for equivalent) and Low operating costs. Don't look for doing cutting edge stuff though - very few Indians doing cutting edge stuff in India - those who are (my company included) is having problems in staffing.
Hope that helps.
> Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
> We are also researching Cochin in Kerala state.
>
>
>> Travis wrote:
>>
>>Can you share some of the main areas in India for biz and the pro's cons, such as costs of living, salaries, amenties, eletrical power/internet connectivity/infrastructure, cultural attitudes, weather, ease of travel, proximity of airports, etc.?
>>
>>1. Mumbai
>>2. Bangalore
>>3. Hyperabad
>>4. Goa
>>5. ??
>>6. ??
>>Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | May 04, 2005 8:12 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | Thanks for sharing all of this!
> Nitin Sharma wrote:
> You can probably think of 2 tiers when it comes to Indian offshoring/outsourcing locations.
>
>1st Tier :-
>1. Bangalore
>2. Hyderabad
>3. Pune
>4. Gurgaon
>5. Chennai
>
>2nd Tier :-
>1. Kolkatta
>2. Nagpur
>3. Mysore
>4. Chandigarh
>5. Noida
>6. ....
>Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 06, 2005 6:57 am | | re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # | 
manav mehta | | Hi lawrence,
Iam a techie who has now worked in alomost all the prominent IT locations in India.
As far as I know Goa it willl be tough for u to find the talent base.
Bangalore has a gud talent base which has a very high attrition rate rate. Also apart from it the infrstructure is too bad.
Other options
DELHI(NOIDA/GURGAON)
Gud infrastructure with very gud reliable talent pool.Shoul explore these places. But better of the two is Greater Noida.
CHANDIGARH itz a green apple now. U dnt have a very big talent pool but if u r not gonna start a very specilaized kinda start up chandigarh could be a gud option. Infosys and DELL and QUARK have a huge base in IT related stuff in chandugarh. A city beautiful with low cost gud talent pool, low cost and infrastructure is kool and ofcourse the city is BEAUTIFUL.
Do lemme know if I could be of any help
regards
manav
> Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
> An associate of mine, and I, are looking into locations to start a new IT operation in India. The two places we have in mind are Goa and Bangalore. One of us will be in India in two weeks to meet with people and scope out opportunities.
>
>We are based in San Francisco and New York. What we have in mind is a small operation where founding members of a venture will work together with a few others in the Indian office, getting a new business off the ground before bringing it online in the US. We see India as a place that enables us to self-fund a new startup, or bring it to a point where we can seek venture funding on favorable terms.
>
>If there are others out there who are interested in sharing facilities and other infrastructure, and setting up a new business, please contact me.
>
>An office in India can be run for about $5000 a month, including a few employees. There are even more economies to scale if a few people get together and share an office, internet connections, accounting and legal services.
>
>I actually plan to work in the office myself for a while. So I have paid particular attention to the option of setting up an office in Goa, a beautiful seaside region famous for its Portugese style architecture and beaches. Wages are lower there, and if wages comparable to Bangalore were paid, I think there would be no problem recuiting anyone in India to work there.
>
>Please let me know if you are interested in partnering on this idea or have advice.
>
>Yours Sincerely,
>
>Lawrence Sinclair Private Reply to manav mehta | | May 06, 2005 7:14 am | | re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Rajiv Sharma | | Hello
I would state that Bangalore doesnt have all that bad infrastructure. Companies are still opening up regularly in Bangalore and there are some traffic woes in peak hours but overall bangalore is still a great option.
Thanks
Regards
Rajiv
> manav mehta wrote:
> Hi lawrence,
>Iam a techie who has now worked in alomost all the prominent IT locations in India.
>
>As far as I know Goa it willl be tough for u to find the talent base.
>
>Bangalore has a gud talent base which has a very high attrition rate rate. Also apart from it the infrstructure is too bad.
Private Reply to Rajiv Sharma | | May 06, 2005 7:00 pm | | re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # | 
s. pokta | | btw, ryze is developed in india huh? anyone familiar with IT development/outsourcing in china?
> manav mehta wrote:
> Hi lawrence,
>Iam a techie who has now worked in alomost all the prominent IT locations in India.
>
>As far as I know Goa it willl be tough for u to find the talent base.
>
>Bangalore has a gud talent base which has a very high attrition rate rate. Also apart from it the infrstructure is too bad.
>
>Other options
>DELHI(NOIDA/GURGAON)
>Gud infrastructure with very gud reliable talent pool.Shoul explore these places. But better of the two is Greater Noida.
>
>CHANDIGARH itz a green apple now. U dnt have a very big talent pool but if u r not gonna start a very specilaized kinda start up chandigarh could be a gud option. Infosys and DELL and QUARK have a huge base in IT related stuff in chandugarh. A city beautiful with low cost gud talent pool, low cost and infrastructure is kool and ofcourse the city is BEAUTIFUL.
>
>Do lemme know if I could be of any help
>regards
>manav
>
>> Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
>> An associate of mine, and I, are looking into locations to start a new IT operation in India. The two places we have in mind are Goa and Bangalore. One of us will be in India in two weeks to meet with people and scope out opportunities.
>>
>>We are based in San Francisco and New York. What we have in mind is a small operation where founding members of a venture will work together with a few others in the Indian office, getting a new business off the ground before bringing it online in the US. We see India as a place that enables us to self-fund a new startup, or bring it to a point where we can seek venture funding on favorable terms.
>>
>>If there are others out there who are interested in sharing facilities and other infrastructure, and setting up a new business, please contact me.
>>
>>An office in India can be run for about $5000 a month, including a few employees. There are even more economies to scale if a few people get together and share an office, internet connections, accounting and legal services.
>>
>>I actually plan to work in the office myself for a while. So I have paid particular attention to the option of setting up an office in Goa, a beautiful seaside region famous for its Portugese style architecture and beaches. Wages are lower there, and if wages comparable to Bangalore were paid, I think there would be no problem recuiting anyone in India to work there.
>>
>>Please let me know if you are interested in partnering on this idea or have advice.
>>
>>Yours Sincerely,
>>
>>Lawrence Sinclair Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 06, 2005 7:53 pm | | re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> btw, ryze is developed in india huh? anyone familiar with IT development/outsourcing in china?
>
I haven't seen much on this, but I think India (at least for me and Americans) is more preferable to China.
1) India has strong segments of English speakers and experience with Western culture - historically from British and also from Indian school system and Indians studying abroad.
2) Indian infrastructure though weak in many way, is still stronger than large swaths of China (of course, excluding Shanghai, Beijin, etc.).
3) Indian ethics. Say what you want about Indian ethics, but doing business in China is scaarrrrrry! Too many Western companies, Taiwanese companies, etc. have been wholesale ripped off by Chinese business partners/associates/outsources. Taiwan's TSMC semicon foundry, Cisco, etc. and Chinese courts don't care -- that's why US trade deficit is so high with China. We buy Chinese goods - they steal ours. Software, music, movies.
Tens of billions of dollars are lost in this alone. Then add in all the other counterfeit US products manufactured and sold in China but also abroad, it's an outrage.
4) Indian Openness vs China Closedness.
I know that there is a big stereotype about Japanese racism and such and I know India has a caste system but mainland China is one of the most racist, nationalist places I've ever seen. There is something brewing there and it will be civil unrest/war at some point.
Case in point is the huge, violent rallies against Japanese aggressions in WWII. That's 60+ years ago. Why bring it up now? And not surprisingly, while China beats up Japan for invading them 60+ years ago and killing a million or so, the Chinese government and people gloss over the fact that the current Chinese government (communists) killed 50 million with such events as Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, etc. not mention attacking Vietnam (1979), attacking India in Assam region (1962), supported Cambodia's Pol Pot and his murder of 2 million Camobodians (1972 - 1979 when Vietnam attacked him), invasion and current occupation of Tibet (1949), I won't even mention current threats against Hong Kong and Taiwan and even South Korea or China's long support of North Korea and their enslavement and death of tens of millions of North Koreans.
All of these events are happening now or are more current than what Japan did and killed more people - but Chinese government and people (mainland China) are silent on this.
I also never saw, China apologize EVER to Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. for all that they did to these countries over the centuries. China occupied Vietnam for 1,000 years. China has never apologized to Vietnam for that. A real double standard and danger so I can't fund what is a rising enemy. Investing money in India, counter balances China and
keeps Pakistan in check.
Also, India is a Democracy. China is not. Indian Democracy has many warts but it is a solid framework for the country to move forward. And Indian has gone through it process to Democracy - this always bring unrest. China is precariously balanced on this and many issues, like major gender inbalances caused by government policies that lead to female infanticide - it's a powder keg over there waiting for a spark.
5) SARS / Chicken Flu / Infectitious Disease.
China has this brewing, etc., covers it up and lies. Other countries in the region like India and even Vietnam, are far more forthcoming and in addressing it.
The only reason I could see to outsource to China, therefore, is if you had to do that or transfer technology to do business there - which, by the way, is a violation of the WTO documents that China signed.
That isn't to say China doesn't have many great engineers, they do. It's just that I don't think most companies will get as much out of it (or protect their IT as well) as can happen in India and I hate to sell the rope to those that want to hang me and my country.
Just a note - this is obviously not about all Chinese, as I know many Chinese in HK, Taiwan and a few in Singapore that "get it" and what all this means. And there are plenty of Chinese in the mainland that get it - but are either in prison, afraid to go to prison so they stay silent or are already dead like those massacred in Tiananmen Square.Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 07, 2005 9:01 am | | re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | For the specific field of IT, i do also agree tht india has an advantage, esp if you have a sizeable scale. for my needed scale, india is kinda far. I already have a "remote control" biz and its not easy to set up.
china has a lot of advantage in terms of investment/manufacturing. if anyone is interested, i'll try to list them out. many (but not all) of the items listed below are true but not completely right.
for example: "I also never saw, China apologize EVER to Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. for all that they did to these countries over the centuries. China occupied Vietnam for 1,000 years. China has never apologized to Vietnam for that. A real double standard and danger so I can't fund what is a rising enemy. Investing money in India, counter balances China and keeps Pakistan in check. " --- is one of the strangest thing you dont hear often.
anyway, thts too political. if someone is interested to share resources in south china on IT projects , i'll be interested. i speak and know the REAL chinese cultures/practices.
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> btw, ryze is developed in india huh? anyone familiar with IT development/outsourcing in china?
>>
>
>I haven't seen much on this, but I think India (at least for me and Americans) is more preferable to China.
>
>1) India has strong segments of English speakers and experience with Western culture - historically from British and also from Indian school system and Indians studying abroad.
>
>2) Indian infrastructure though weak in many way, is still stronger than large swaths of China (of course, excluding Shanghai, Beijin, etc.).
>
>3) Indian ethics. Say what you want about Indian ethics, but doing business in China is scaarrrrrry! Too many Western companies, Taiwanese companies, etc. have been wholesale ripped off by Chinese business partners/associates/outsources. Taiwan's TSMC semicon foundry, Cisco, etc. and Chinese courts don't care -- that's why US trade deficit is so high with China. We buy Chinese goods - they steal ours. Software, music, movies.
>
>Tens of billions of dollars are lost in this alone. Then add in all the other counterfeit US products manufactured and sold in China but also abroad, it's an outrage.
>
>4) Indian Openness vs China Closedness.
>
>I know that there is a big stereotype about Japanese racism and such and I know India has a caste system but mainland China is one of the most racist, nationalist places I've ever seen. There is something brewing there and it will be civil unrest/war at some point.
>
>Case in point is the huge, violent rallies against Japanese aggressions in WWII. That's 60+ years ago. Why bring it up now? And not surprisingly, while China beats up Japan for invading them 60+ years ago and killing a million or so, the Chinese government and people gloss over the fact that the current Chinese government (communists) killed 50 million with such events as Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, etc. not mention attacking Vietnam (1979), attacking India in Assam region (1962), supported Cambodia's Pol Pot and his murder of 2 million Camobodians (1972 - 1979 when Vietnam attacked him), invasion and current occupation of Tibet (1949), I won't even mention current threats against Hong Kong and Taiwan and even South Korea or China's long support of North Korea and their enslavement and death of tens of millions of North Koreans.
>
>All of these events are happening now or are more current than what Japan did and killed more people - but Chinese government and people (mainland China) are silent on this.
>
>I also never saw, China apologize EVER to Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. for all that they did to these countries over the centuries. China occupied Vietnam for 1,000 years. China has never apologized to Vietnam for that. A real double standard and danger so I can't fund what is a rising enemy. Investing money in India, counter balances China and
>keeps Pakistan in check.
>
>Also, India is a Democracy. China is not. Indian Democracy has many warts but it is a solid framework for the country to move forward. And Indian has gone through it process to Democracy - this always bring unrest. China is precariously balanced on this and many issues, like major gender inbalances caused by government policies that lead to female infanticide - it's a powder keg over there waiting for a spark.
>
>5) SARS / Chicken Flu / Infectitious Disease.
>
>China has this brewing, etc., covers it up and lies. Other countries in the region like India and even Vietnam, are far more forthcoming and in addressing it.
>
>The only reason I could see to outsource to China, therefore, is if you had to do that or transfer technology to do business there - which, by the way, is a violation of the WTO documents that China signed.
>
>That isn't to say China doesn't have many great engineers, they do. It's just that I don't think most companies will get as much out of it (or protect their IT as well) as can happen in India and I hate to sell the rope to those that want to hang me and my country.
>
>Just a note - this is obviously not about all Chinese, as I know many Chinese in HK, Taiwan and a few in Singapore that "get it" and what all this means. And there are plenty of Chinese in the mainland that get it - but are either in prison, afraid to go to prison so they stay silent or are already dead like those massacred in Tiananmen Square. Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 07, 2005 7:23 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> For the specific field of IT, i do also agree tht india has an advantage, esp if you have a sizeable scale. for my needed scale, india is kinda far. I already have a "remote control" biz and its not easy to set up.
>
Distance and control is a major consideration as well as language, cultural and legal issues.
>china has a lot of advantage in terms of investment/manufacturing. if anyone is interested, i'll try to list them out. many (but not all) of the items listed below are true but not completely right.
>
I'd be curious which one's I listed are true but not right?
China did invade Tibet (probably the most spiritual country on the planet) and forced the Da Lai Lama to flee to India or be killed. China did attack India to humble her. China did kill 2,000 plus innocent, peaceful, freedom-starved people just a decade ago in Tiananmen Square. China did attack Vietnam in 1979, China did support Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge Killing Machine of Cambodia. China did and DOES support North Korea and that Prison-camp of a country. China does support and maintains that prison camp of a country in Myanmar/Burma. And China did invade and control Vietnam for 1,000 years and to this day the Vietnamese while greatly influenced by China in art, culinary arts, etc., look to her with a wary and jaundiced eye.
Those are all documented facts. It's also a fact that China claims Taiwan and threatens her but we all know that China has NEVER had ownership of Taiwan, that those inhabitants are not even of Han ethnic stock - so China's claim to Taiwan is false and baseless.
China lied about following HK rule after handover by the British - in fact, the average HKer had more freedom and less fear under the British then since the handover - documented facts.
I won't even mention the 20 - 50 million killed in China since Mao's time. Yet China takes Japan to task for its aggressive ways, 60+ years ago - why? So China can get the 'moral highground in asia'.
China has had massive and violent protests against 'lies' in Japan textbooks and Japanese President Koizumi's visits to the National Shinto Shrine of Yasukuni, because China says Yasukuni houses war criminals.
Yet China's own text books are not only full of lies, but ignore tibet, taiwan, tainenmen square and the 20+ million killed by Mao, not only that but MAO is entombed as a hero although he was murderous butcher.
I won't even go into the history of China and the fact that "China" was never "China" and is comprised of over 70 different ethnic groups who were folded into "China" during a warring states period by the ethnic Han majority.
So China blames victim on the world stage while it hides it's past butchering of not only its own people but it's neighbors and it even continues this today.
>for example: "I also never saw, China apologize EVER to Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. for all that they did to these countries over the centuries. China occupied Vietnam for 1,000 years. China has never apologized to Vietnam for that. A real double standard and danger so I can't fund what is a rising enemy. Investing money in India, counter balances China and keeps Pakistan in check. " --- is one of the strangest thing you dont hear often.
>
>anyway, thts too political. if someone is interested to share resources in south china on IT projects , i'll be interested. i speak and know the REAL chinese cultures/practices.
>
All business must address politics and is effected by politics. From who you hire, who you can hire, who you must hire, who you do hire or don't hire, politics effects this. It effects your costs for taxes, environmental compliance,safety compliance. It effects who you can't trade with as a US company - eg. North Korea, Cuba and formerly Libya - to who you MUST trade with - eg. Israel.
An understanding of politics is critical to even a domestic business and even more so to an international one. Issues such as rule of law, political stability and unrest, inflation, sanctity of contract, IP protection, etc. all play into that decision.
By the way, I just remembered China was also responsible for supporting Ho Chi Minh's savage subjugation of South Vietnam and the Communist insurgency in Indonesia that cost several hundred thousand lives.
China is not pure as the wind driven snow, nor is Japan full of 'racists' as we are lead to believe. If anyone doubts this take a trip to Japan and China - the amount of friendliness and cultural sophistication of Japan versus mainland China rabid nationalism and anti-Japan and anti-US attitude is striking but not surprising as the government controlled schools of China have been teaching the kids to hate the US and Japan for a two decades.
And as I said, what do US people get out of China? Sure some of us get cheap goods and politicians make money and some businesses do, but collectively we lose all our IP, we strenghten China's army, we gave up the Panama Canal to the ChiComms (thank you Jimmy Carter), and all of our major exports - soft exports that make us trillions - software, music, movies - are openly pirated and sold on Chinese streets for a buck each!
It's an outrage, no wonder the trade deficit is so high. And for the hard goods that we make - like designer clothes, they rip those off, and produce them in China and sell domestically and abroad. Yet the American people sleep....Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 08, 2005 8:24 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | Dear Travis,
Ni Hao Ma? Wo xiang ni dung yi dian chung wen?
omg, i think yr current post is further off in facts than the earlier one. i can't write as much as you can and the apparent objective of this thread seems to be finding a cheaper place like india to do some (developement) work.
it seems like not many ppl are interested in china, so lets let it go. if theres someone else reading this thread who is interested, i will be willingly to try to share wht i know.
i read many of yr post on fund raising and sec regulations with respect. but i think you are far from an expert in other countries like china, indonesia, hk, taiwan, etc. as you got many facts wrong -- sorry to say, there are too many to list.
pls dont feel offended. i am only hoping other ppl will not read n take the wrong things for facts. best wishes.
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> For the specific field of IT, i do also agree tht india has an advantage, esp if you have a sizeable scale. for my needed scale, india is kinda far. I already have a "remote control" biz and its not easy to set up.
>>
>
>Distance and control is a major consideration as well as language, cultural and legal issues.
>
>>china has a lot of advantage in terms of investment/manufacturing. if anyone is interested, i'll try to list them out. many (but not all) of the items listed below are true but not completely right.
>>
>
>I'd be curious which one's I listed are true but not right?
>China did invade Tibet (probably the most spiritual country on the planet) and forced the Da Lai Lama to flee to India or be killed. China did attack India to humble her. China did kill 2,000 plus innocent, peaceful, freedom-starved people just a decade ago in Tiananmen Square. China did attack Vietnam in 1979, China did support Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge Killing Machine of Cambodia. China did and DOES support North Korea and that Prison-camp of a country. China does support and maintains that prison camp of a country in Myanmar/Burma. And China did invade and control Vietnam for 1,000 years and to this day the Vietnamese while greatly influenced by China in art, culinary arts, etc., look to her with a wary and jaundiced eye.
>
>Those are all documented facts. It's also a fact that China claims Taiwan and threatens her but we all know that China has NEVER had ownership of Taiwan, that those inhabitants are not even of Han ethnic stock - so China's claim to Taiwan is false and baseless.
>
>China lied about following HK rule after handover by the British - in fact, the average HKer had more freedom and less fear under the British then since the handover - documented facts.
>
>I won't even mention the 20 - 50 million killed in China since Mao's time. Yet China takes Japan to task for its aggressive ways, 60+ years ago - why? So China can get the 'moral highground in asia'.
>
>China has had massive and violent protests against 'lies' in Japan textbooks and Japanese President Koizumi's visits to the National Shinto Shrine of Yasukuni, because China says Yasukuni houses war criminals.
>
>Yet China's own text books are not only full of lies, but ignore tibet, taiwan, tainenmen square and the 20+ million killed by Mao, not only that but MAO is entombed as a hero although he was murderous butcher.
>
>I won't even go into the history of China and the fact that "China" was never "China" and is comprised of over 70 different ethnic groups who were folded into "China" during a warring states period by the ethnic Han majority.
>
>So China blames victim on the world stage while it hides it's past butchering of not only its own people but it's neighbors and it even continues this today.
>
>>for example: "I also never saw, China apologize EVER to Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. for all that they did to these countries over the centuries. China occupied Vietnam for 1,000 years. China has never apologized to Vietnam for that. A real double standard and danger so I can't fund what is a rising enemy. Investing money in India, counter balances China and keeps Pakistan in check. " --- is one of the strangest thing you dont hear often.
>>
>>anyway, thts too political. if someone is interested to share resources in south china on IT projects , i'll be interested. i speak and know the REAL chinese cultures/practices.
>>
>
>All business must address politics and is effected by politics. From who you hire, who you can hire, who you must hire, who you do hire or don't hire, politics effects this. It effects your costs for taxes, environmental compliance,safety compliance. It effects who you can't trade with as a US company - eg. North Korea, Cuba and formerly Libya - to who you MUST trade with - eg. Israel.
>
>An understanding of politics is critical to even a domestic business and even more so to an international one. Issues such as rule of law, political stability and unrest, inflation, sanctity of contract, IP protection, etc. all play into that decision.
>
>By the way, I just remembered China was also responsible for supporting Ho Chi Minh's savage subjugation of South Vietnam and the Communist insurgency in Indonesia that cost several hundred thousand lives.
>
>China is not pure as the wind driven snow, nor is Japan full of 'racists' as we are lead to believe. If anyone doubts this take a trip to Japan and China - the amount of friendliness and cultural sophistication of Japan versus mainland China rabid nationalism and anti-Japan and anti-US attitude is striking but not surprising as the government controlled schools of China have been teaching the kids to hate the US and Japan for a two decades.
>
>And as I said, what do US people get out of China? Sure some of us get cheap goods and politicians make money and some businesses do, but collectively we lose all our IP, we strenghten China's army, we gave up the Panama Canal to the ChiComms (thank you Jimmy Carter), and all of our major exports - soft exports that make us trillions - software, music, movies - are openly pirated and sold on Chinese streets for a buck each!
>
>It's an outrage, no wonder the trade deficit is so high. And for the hard goods that we make - like designer clothes, they rip those off, and produce them in China and sell domestically and abroad. Yet the American people sleep.... Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 08, 2005 10:10 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> Dear Travis,
>
>Ni Hao Ma? Wo xiang ni dung yi dian chung wen?
>
I got the first part, but my pinyin is horrible. Throw some hanxi up there and I'll take a crack at it. :)
>omg, i think yr current post is further off in facts than the earlier one. i can't write as much as you can and the apparent objective of this thread seems to be finding a cheaper place like india to do some (developement) work.
>
My post was actually right on target because as I said, the cost of doing business, especially overseas needs to take into account political issues/risk, risks of nationalism of corporate assets (as we've seen happen to US business in Middle East among other places), infrastructure, communication issues, monetary policy and inflation, the ability to freely convert curency, folkways, mores, cultural expectations, religious conventions, etc. These all need to be measured, weighted and evaluated. For instance, in past decades the Japanese yen was not freely convertible and the exchange rated didn't float but was pegged at 360 yen/dollar (or 350?). Other countries have had massive bouts of inflation, such as in South America.
In other places kidnappings of foreign nationals have been a major issue. Infectious disease, sanitation, etc. play a role, too. China's criminal coverup of SARS and Bird Flu while Vietnam and India were far more forth coming made a lot of foreign companies sit up and take notice. In other places infrastructure has been weak from lack of roadways, power shortages with blackouts and brownouts, terrible quality of water, etc.
In regards to China, China has shown itself (again mainland China, not HK, not Taiwan, not overseas Chinese in US, Europe, India, Sing., etc.) to be extremely aggressive in threatening its neighbors while trying to create and hold a moral highground (more about this below) of "purity" and "fairness".
>it seems like not many ppl are interested in china, so lets let it go. if theres someone else reading this thread who is interested, i will be willingly to try to share wht i know.
>
China is interesting. Many jump on because they see big dollars or more appropriately renminbi, but they don't see how elusive these are to actually get - for instance, how many legal DVDs or videotapes of any major Hollywood movie have been sold? How many legal copies of MS Windows or other US software has been sold in China? My guess is almost nothing - knockoffs are openly sold in the streets for 1 buck each. However, foreign companies are not only pouring in 10's of billions of dollars of investments but being forced to create joint ventures with Chinese companies and worst of all give up IP to do so.
Now about China's bad citizenship, well, it hasn't gotten much press in the West and in US, but China has for decades been brainwashing kids in school with "US, Japan evil", forget the fact that nothing the US or Japan did can ever compare to what the communist Chinese regimes have done to its own people and, of course, China never acknowledges the tens of billions of food aid and dev. aid provided by US, Japan over the years. In recent weeks, Chinese have beaten up scores of Japanese citizens (students and biz people) in China, destroyed Japanese businesses and threatened to incinerate Japan and are calling on boycotts of Japan and the "reclaiming" of Sekaku islands and Taiwan. China has consistenly broken its promises on HK and HKers have less freedom today under China than they did under Britain.
As Japan continues to get harassed, the response from Japan, of course, will be to revoke Article 9 of their Constitution (allowing them to build offensive capabilities), build a deep-water Navy, etc. and at some point build nukes. Hopefully South Korea will wake up, too.
Most Americans are also not aware that the 911 attacks in NY were celebrated in China with a videotaped program that was a best seller there.
This stuff isn't covered in US and Western news.
Chinese "scholars" also recently released a study that showed Korean "has always been a part of China". China continues to spar over the Spratley island, threaten Taiwan, encroach on Japan's possession of the Senkaku Islands while still subjugating and killing Tibetan culture and the people.
Trafficking of kidnapped Vietnamese woman sold into China goes on today. The San Jose Mercury news has even run stories on this and a few women who escaped.
>i read many of yr post on fund raising and sec regulations with respect. but i think you are far from an expert in other countries like china, indonesia, hk, taiwan, etc. as you got many facts wrong -- sorry to say, there are too many to list.
>
I'm actually very qualified to comment on those countries
so rather than trying to list too many mistakes I made on China, why not just make one. List just one. I'd love to see which one it was one.
As I said, each statement I made regarding China are documented facts from its attacks on Vietnam centuries ago to attacks in 1979 (documented fact), the invasion of Tibet is documented fact, the fact that Taiwan has NEVER been a part of China and that the original Taiwanese, the natives, were not and are not ethnic Hans and so on. It's also not a secret of the amount of bloodshed that China has wrought on its own citizenry. The biggest victim of China has been the Chinese people, although I do fault the US government for allowing China to go communist - why defend China from Imperial Japan only to have it go red?
>pls dont feel offended. i am only hoping other ppl will not read n take the wrong things for facts. best wishes.
>
I'm not offended at all. And I also hope that I haven't offended any Chinese, because the vast majority of Chinese are good people they've just been used by the communist government. Taiwan and HK again have to face violent threats daily as well. Chinese culture and history is rich and I enjoy it and have studied it for years. We know the Chinese are industrious people, and they proven that when given the chance to live in a free society. One only has to look at how prosperous free Chinese are in Hong Kong (which was a rock but became worth more than all of China at one point), Taiwan, Sing. and overseas Chinese in US, Europe, Japan, India, Vietnam, etc. But the self serving Communist system has enslaved hundreds of millions of Chinese, treated the people like animals - one only has to look at the Great Leap forward, the Cultural Revolution and the "sent down" people, human wave attacks in Korean war and in the 1979 invasion of Vietnam, one-child rules, forced infanticide, massacre of 2,000 peaceful pro-democracy protesters in Tianamen Square, etc.
However, at some point when space travel is mundane, I will bet you the first restaurant on the moon or mars won't be KFC or McDonalds but will be Panda Express or Lucky Dragon Chinese food. :)Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 08, 2005 6:18 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | He he, I thought u knew some chinese. I meant:¡¦¡¦how are you? I guess u know some Chinese¡¦¡¦ (sorry I dunno how to type Chinese in pc)
If you want me to clarify just one thing, there is this Taiwanese inhabitants¡¦ ethnic origin which is kinda interesting: I think there are 3 major types of Taiwanese if you group them by ethnic type.
Type1: the mountaineers ¡V they are the¡¦¡¦natives¡¦¡¦ (depends on how far back you wanna trace) of Taiwan. Like the red Indians of n. America, they are the minorities of Taiwan now.
Type2: descendants of migrants from mainland china (mostly from Fujian¡¦s province, right opposite Taiwan island), who have been crossing the strait back and forth for the last few hundred years before the ¡§civil¡¨ war. These ppl and the ppl of fujian province speaks the same kind of dialect (I speak that too).
Type3: the (descendants of) nationalists (or the KMT - - KuoMingTang) who lost the war to the communists in mainland and retreated to Taiwan.
When the KMT and their families fled to Taiwan, they were not welcomed by type2 and the KMT kinda killed and tortured them. That¡¦s why some of yr Taiwanese friends claim ¡§I am Taiwanese, I am NOT Chinese¡¨. Type2 used to hate type3 but now they get along much better, esp under the threat of the mainland.
If you look at the culture, language and everything, most asians regard both type2 and type3 to be Chinese (or ethnic Han) and they constitute about 95% or more of the island¡¦s population. If you argue that type2 is not ethnic Han, type3 (plus decedents) also constitute about 40% of the population. So, I think to say no inhabitants of Taiwan is of ethnic Han is very wrong. I guess you know the official name of Taiwan is ¡¥¡¦Republic of China¡¦¡¦ ¡V the KMT named it and they were hoping to re-occupy the mainland one day. The airline of Taiwan is ¡¥¡¦China airline¡¦¡¦ (there are new airlines with other names now).
I would consider type2 to be ethnic Han, actually. Before the overthrown of The Qing dynasty, they got into a conflict (or war) with the japs and they had to ¡§give¡¨ Taiwan to the japs as part of the apology package. And Japan ruled Taiwan for 50 yrs before they lost the WW2 . Under the Japs, Taiwan was more advanced in social structure, so they hated the type3 when they came and took control. Unless you don¡¦t consider Qing dynasty as China, Taiwan WAS part of china (just not the current communist ruled china).
Recently, the opposition party leaders of Taiwan are going to china (pls google the news yrself) and they stated the need of peace for¡¦¡¦brothers¡¦¡¦. Believe me, many ppl regard Taiwan and its ppl as Chinese, including many current inhabitants of Taiwan. It¡¦s the unfriendly approach of China that¡¦s causing some ppl in Taiwan to re-identify themselves as Taiwanese.
I m not a history expert nor a current affair specialist, but I m Chinese and I know the littlest any Chinese know. I hv many many relatives and friends in China, Taiwan and hk. I speak the languages, studied part of the history and visited China, Taiwan countless times. And I hv lived in hk for a decade, btw, what you said about hk was not very true either¡K. Hk ppl loved and hated the brits (same for Indians?), they only ¡¥¡¦liberated¡¦¡¦ hk right before the handover. The mainland Chinese got real pissed cuz they publicly promised ¡¥¡¦no change for hk after the handover¡¦¡¦ before the brits made all those changes. Its true and sad that hk has lost some freedom since the handover, but there weren¡¦t lots of freedom/fairness before the brits knew they had to return hk to china. I guess you know the governor of hk was appointed by UK and the head (they call it chief executive now) of hk is vote elected now? The election committee is made up of 800 hk ppl selected by China, so the Chinese gov brags that it¡¦s a lot of democracy compare to the british ruled days¡K. (frankly, I think its half right again. However they promised full election ¡¥¡¦eventually¡¦¡¦)
As you can see, its very lengthy to elaborate¡K we should get back into outsourcing in asia? ;)
Actually, there are some horror stories about china tht you didn¡¦t mention or know. But it looks like things are improving (slowly in some areas).
Back to IT/software in china? I think there might be some advantages there.. over 150 million net users ( I think this is not accurate estimate) and over 200 million cell phone users (this is more accurate, I m a share holder of china mobile). I just came back from shanghai, cant believe they blocked yahoo.com. millions in yahoo.com.cn though.
Gee, this is taking me hours to type. hope we can talk more about biz. ;)
ps. If you can take jerry yang (Taiwan)( are you near to yahoo¡¦s hq?) to watch a game of basketball when YaoMing (China) is coming to town (sorry to hear the rockets are out for the season), there is something on the left arm in which every ethnic Han is supposed to have¡K. ( very mythical, but interesting). You can double check for yrself if China and Taiwan are ethnically related. : )))))
cheers.
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> Dear Travis,
>>
>>Ni Hao Ma? Wo xiang ni dung yi dian chung wen?
>>
>
>I got the first part, but my pinyin is horrible. Throw some hanxi up there and I'll take a crack at it. :)
>
>>omg, i think yr current post is further off in facts than the earlier one. i can't write as much as you can and the apparent objective of this thread seems to be finding a cheaper place like india to do some (developement) work.
>>
>
>My post was actually right on target because as I said, the cost of doing business, especially overseas needs to take into account political issues/risk, risks of nationalism of corporate assets (as we've seen happen to US business in Middle East among other places), infrastructure, communication issues, monetary policy and inflation, the ability to freely convert curency, folkways, mores, cultural expectations, religious conventions, etc. These all need to be measured, weighted and evaluated. For instance, in past decades the Japanese yen was not freely convertible and the exchange rated didn't float but was pegged at 360 yen/dollar (or 350?). Other countries have had massive bouts of inflation, such as in South America.
>
>In other places kidnappings of foreign nationals have been a major issue. Infectious disease, sanitation, etc. play a role, too. China's criminal coverup of SARS and Bird Flu while Vietnam and India were far more forth coming made a lot of foreign companies sit up and take notice. In other places infrastructure has been weak from lack of roadways, power shortages with blackouts and brownouts, terrible quality of water, etc.
>
>In regards to China, China has shown itself (again mainland China, not HK, not Taiwan, not overseas Chinese in US, Europe, India, Sing., etc.) to be extremely aggressive in threatening its neighbors while trying to create and hold a moral highground (more about this below) of "purity" and "fairness".
>
>>it seems like not many ppl are interested in china, so lets let it go. if theres someone else reading this thread who is interested, i will be willingly to try to share wht i know.
>>
>
>China is interesting. Many jump on because they see big dollars or more appropriately renminbi, but they don't see how elusive these are to actually get - for instance, how many legal DVDs or videotapes of any major Hollywood movie have been sold? How many legal copies of MS Windows or other US software has been sold in China? My guess is almost nothing - knockoffs are openly sold in the streets for 1 buck each. However, foreign companies are not only pouring in 10's of billions of dollars of investments but being forced to create joint ventures with Chinese companies and worst of all give up IP to do so.
>
>Now about China's bad citizenship, well, it hasn't gotten much press in the West and in US, but China has for decades been brainwashing kids in school with "US, Japan evil", forget the fact that nothing the US or Japan did can ever compare to what the communist Chinese regimes have done to its own people and, of course, China never acknowledges the tens of billions of food aid and dev. aid provided by US, Japan over the years. In recent weeks, Chinese have beaten up scores of Japanese citizens (students and biz people) in China, destroyed Japanese businesses and threatened to incinerate Japan and are calling on boycotts of Japan and the "reclaiming" of Sekaku islands and Taiwan. China has consistenly broken its promises on HK and HKers have less freedom today under China than they did under Britain.
>
>As Japan continues to get harassed, the response from Japan, of course, will be to revoke Article 9 of their Constitution (allowing them to build offensive capabilities), build a deep-water Navy, etc. and at some point build nukes. Hopefully South Korea will wake up, too.
>
>Most Americans are also not aware that the 911 attacks in NY were celebrated in China with a videotaped program that was a best seller there.
>
>This stuff isn't covered in US and Western news.
>
>Chinese "scholars" also recently released a study that showed Korean "has always been a part of China". China continues to spar over the Spratley island, threaten Taiwan, encroach on Japan's possession of the Senkaku Islands while still subjugating and killing Tibetan culture and the people.
>
>Trafficking of kidnapped Vietnamese woman sold into China goes on today. The San Jose Mercury news has even run stories on this and a few women who escaped.
>
>>i read many of yr post on fund raising and sec regulations with respect. but i think you are far from an expert in other countries like china, indonesia, hk, taiwan, etc. as you got many facts wrong -- sorry to say, there are too many to list.
>>
>
>I'm actually very qualified to comment on those countries
>so rather than trying to list too many mistakes I made on China, why not just make one. List just one. I'd love to see which one it was one.
>
>As I said, each statement I made regarding China are documented facts from its attacks on Vietnam centuries ago to attacks in 1979 (documented fact), the invasion of Tibet is documented fact, the fact that Taiwan has NEVER been a part of China and that the original Taiwanese, the natives, were not and are not ethnic Hans and so on. It's also not a secret of the amount of bloodshed that China has wrought on its own citizenry. The biggest victim of China has been the Chinese people, although I do fault the US government for allowing China to go communist - why defend China from Imperial Japan only to have it go red?
>
>>pls dont feel offended. i am only hoping other ppl will not read n take the wrong things for facts. best wishes.
>>
>
>I'm not offended at all. And I also hope that I haven't offended any Chinese, because the vast majority of Chinese are good people they've just been used by the communist government. Taiwan and HK again have to face violent threats daily as well. Chinese culture and history is rich and I enjoy it and have studied it for years. We know the Chinese are industrious people, and they proven that when given the chance to live in a free society. One only has to look at how prosperous free Chinese are in Hong Kong (which was a rock but became worth more than all of China at one point), Taiwan, Sing. and overseas Chinese in US, Europe, Japan, India, Vietnam, etc. But the self serving Communist system has enslaved hundreds of millions of Chinese, treated the people like animals - one only has to look at the Great Leap forward, the Cultural Revolution and the "sent down" people, human wave attacks in Korean war and in the 1979 invasion of Vietnam, one-child rules, forced infanticide, massacre of 2,000 peaceful pro-democracy protesters in Tianamen Square, etc.
>
>However, at some point when space travel is mundane, I will bet you the first restaurant on the moon or mars won't be KFC or McDonalds but will be Panda Express or Lucky Dragon Chinese food. :) Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 10, 2005 12:31 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> He he, I thought u knew some chinese. I meant:¡¦¡¦how are you? I guess u know some Chinese¡¦¡¦ (sorry I dunno how to type Chinese in pc)
>
I know some Chinese - basic phrases. The rest I can often infer if you use Hanxi characters (I know these from
Sino-based Japanese character readings).
>If you want me to clarify just one thing, there is this Taiwanese inhabitants¡¦ ethnic origin which is kinda interesting: I think there are 3 major types of Taiwanese if you group them by ethnic type.
>
>Type1: the mountaineers ¡V they are the¡¦¡¦natives¡¦¡¦ (depends on how far back you wanna trace) of Taiwan. Like the red Indians of n. America, they are the minorities of Taiwan now.
>
>Type2: descendants of migrants from mainland china (mostly from Fujian¡¦s province, right opposite Taiwan island), who have been crossing the strait back and forth for the last few hundred years before the ¡§civil¡¨ war. These ppl and the ppl of fujian province speaks the same kind of dialect (I speak that too).
>
>Type3: the (descendants of) nationalists (or the KMT - - KuoMingTang) who lost the war to the communists in mainland and retreated to Taiwan.
>
Actually you are making my very point here. My original post was this "China has a false claim to Taiwan as being a part of China".
As I said, Taiwan has never been a part of China. Not before the communists came into power and not after.
And I see we are even on agreement with regards to inhabitants. The original inhabitants were not Chinese (any of the 50+ ethnic groups) and not Han. They were "Austronesians" and depending on who you believe related to Maori or some Polynesians, etc. All that really matters is again, they were not Chinese, nor did China settle or have a right to Taiwan.
Yes, over recent centuries, trading occurred between Chinese and Taiwan. Some Chinese, as one would expect, settled in Taiwan. You mentioned Fujinese and of course, the Hakka settled in Taiwan as well - Hakka settle all over the world and you'll find many Hakka in India as well (one of my friends is Hakka).
When KMT was forced out of mainland China by the communists they came to Taiwan. But again, that doesn't mean that Taiwan automatically became a part of mainland China nor does it mean that Taiwan has been a part of China for 5,000 years - because it hasn't.
This historical reality has been lost on most of the world's population because they don't know history and the media networks don't want to waste time explaining reality or perhaps they don't know it was well.
>When the KMT and their families fled to Taiwan, they were not welcomed by type2 and the KMT kinda killed and tortured them. That¡¦s why some of yr Taiwanese friends claim ¡§I am Taiwanese, I am NOT Chinese¡¨. Type2 used to hate type3 but now they get along much better, esp under the threat of the mainland.
>
It is true when KMT came to Taiwan, they came as invaders, which they were (since Taiwan was not and has never been a part of China) and importantly to underscore this was the KMT's Feb. 1945 massacre of the natives.
>If you look at the culture, language and everything, most asians regard both type2 and type3 to be Chinese (or ethnic Han) and they constitute about 95% or more of the island¡¦s population. If you argue that type2 is not ethnic Han, type3 (plus decedents) also constitute about 40% of the population. So, I think to say no inhabitants of Taiwan is of ethnic Han is very wrong. I guess you know the official name of Taiwan is ¡¥¡¦Republic of China¡¦¡¦ ¡V the KMT named it and they were hoping to re-occupy the mainland one day. The airline of Taiwan is ¡¥¡¦China airline¡¦¡¦ (there are new airlines with other names now).
>
You are missing the point. It doesn't matter what language or dialect the people speak. If a billion Chinese move to America and we all start speaking Chinese and use Chinese customs that doesn't make America a part of China nor does it mean that America has always been a part of China.
Yes, non-native population groups including Han have overwhelmed Taiwan. Because of that Chinese culture is the dominant culture in Taiwan but that doesn't change the fact that Taiwan is still not a part of China nor has it ever been a part of a China.
Does mainland China actually have the arrogance to believe that they own a Chinese person and the land they own and country they reside in simpy because the Chinese person has Han DNA or speaks a dialect of Chinese?
>I would consider type2 to be ethnic Han, actually. Before the overthrown of The Qing dynasty, they got into a conflict (or war) with the japs and they had to ¡§give¡¨ Taiwan to the japs as part of the apology package. And
>
But if you are going to go back to all these dynasties then Vietnam is still a part of China since the Chinese ruled it for a 1,000 years or so. And actually, we hear so much about Chinese civilization existing for 5,000+ years, yet the concept of a unified China and of it being "China" itself do not occur until long after "China's" existence.
>
Japan ruled Taiwan for 50 yrs before they lost the WW2. Under the Japs, Taiwan was more advanced in social structure, so they hated the type3 when they came and took control. Unless you don¡¦t consider Qing dynasty as China, Taiwan WAS part of china (just not the current communist ruled china).
>
And this raises the whole other issue as well - is the current government in China legitimate?
>Recently, the opposition party leaders of Taiwan are going to china (pls google the news yrself) and they stated the need of peace for¡¦¡¦brothers¡¦¡¦. Believe me, many ppl regard Taiwan and its ppl as Chinese, including many current inhabitants of Taiwan. It¡¦s the unfriendly approach of China that¡¦s causing some ppl in Taiwan to re-identify themselves as Taiwanese.
>
Again, it's not wrong to say that the majority of Taiwanese inhabitants are Chinese, however, Taiwan is not a part of China.
If we can't say that, I'm worried about San Francisco. We have a huge population of Chinese inhabitants so does that mean China now has claim to San Francisco?
>I m not a history expert nor a current affair specialist, but I m Chinese and I know the littlest any Chinese know. I hv many many relatives and friends in China, Taiwan and hk. I speak the languages, studied part of the history and visited China, Taiwan countless times. And I hv lived in hk for a decade, btw, what you said about hk was not very true either¡K. Hk ppl loved and hated the brits (same for Indians?),
>
Believe me, I'm not saying the British were saints and I'm not about to condone Opium wars and such behavior or putting down the Boxer Rebellion. Yes, those went on in those days with all involved parties though it would make us cringe today.
All I'm saying is that we know that Chinese inhabited the rock called HK which had very few natural resources and Chinese inhabitated mainland China with vast resources.
China was ruled by the Chinese during the same time Britain ruled HK. And during that time period we see that HK went from a little rock to financial powerhouse in short order while China floundered and eventually went back centuries in barbarity under the communists - both places had Chinese workers and inhabitants the difference was where the rule of law came from.
Britain, while owning HK, still maintained a rule of law
and I would suggest based on all that I've seen - like the tens of thousands of people who have fled or are fleeing HK after Chinese rule - the people felt better and safer under British rule than Chinese rule. From what I have read, HKer's have less rights and more fear under Chinese rule in 2005 than they did with British rule in 1997.
Again, I'm not saying Britian were saints or anything, just looking at two competing interests (China vs Britain).
>
Its true and sad that hk has lost some freedom since the handover, but there weren¡¦t lots of freedom/fairness before the brits knew they had to return hk to china.
>
Yeah, but still under Britain, would you imagine that you could have a Tianamen Square Massacre in the 1980's or 1990's? The world media wouldn't let that nor would financial markets.
Even before the handover, HK had a right to private property there were also a strong court system while China only recently allowed private property ownership and their court system is frightening.
>Actually, there are some horror stories about china tht you didn¡¦t mention or know. But it looks like things are improving (slowly in some areas).
>
I actually have a whole hard drive of that, but I didn't want to flood the list. :) I was just trying to list a few of the main ones that list members might know of, had heard of or could easily verify. In the US, most people are shocked to ever know that China attacked India. And it amazes me how many ignorant American kids run around chanting "Free Tibet!" and when I ask from "Who"? They don't know. It's like they don't know who invaded and is occupying Tibet.
>Back to IT/software in china? I think there might be some advantages there.. over 150 million net users ( I think this is not accurate estimate) and over 200 million cell phone users (this is more accurate, I m a share holder of china mobile). I just came back from shanghai, cant believe they blocked yahoo.com. millions in yahoo.com.cn though.
>
Obviously China has much potential both as a market place of consumers and as resource for technology. And as I said, the majority of Chinese living in the mainland are victims themselves of either brainwashing or being held back from progress. But these are very uncertain times and will continue to be so as China tries to play both sides of the fence in holding people in check and playing in international commerce.
>Gee, this is taking me hours to type. hope we can talk more about biz. ;)
>
>ps. If you can take jerry yang (Taiwan)( are you near to yahoo¡¦s hq?) to watch a game of basketball when YaoMing (China) is coming to town (sorry to hear the rockets are out for the season), there is something on the left arm in which every ethnic Han is supposed to have¡K. ( very mythical, but interesting). You can double check for yrself if China and Taiwan are ethnically related. : )))))
>
I not debating Taiwan and China are ethnically related. The same can be said about Singapore and China and Singapore and India. In fact, following that argument since Yao Ming is living in the US with permanent residency (and I'm sure he'll seek citizenship here if he can pay off his communist bosses in China and they okay it) and Jerry Yang is living in the US and is a US citizen to my knowledge, does that mean that China can claim it owns the NBA, Silicon Valley and Yahoo?
Things can be related without implying ownership - that was my whole point.
Have a great day.
- THPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 10, 2005 8:20 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | Dear Travis,
I guess we are getting closer. i had to read back at the long post and pull what you wrote out:
** we all know that China has NEVER had ownership of Taiwan, that those inhabitants are not even of Han ethnic **
my response was meant to ONLY clarify the 2nd part of yr above statement. which you have now said :
** Yes, non-native population groups including Han have overwhelmed Taiwan **
I guess we both agree on this now.
I only tried to clarify 1 point (above). i was not trying to argue if **China has NEVER had ownership of Taiwan** but when i mentioned Qing dynasty *gave* taiwan to japan, that was not several thousand years ago. tht should be around 1900, pretty recent by historical unit. I think even historians regard Qing dynasty as (government of) china some time in history. As (a non-brain washed) chinese, i personally feel that Taiwan was at least part of china somewhere in time. but i do feel that they should be free 2 run the island themselves. again, i dun wanna argue about this.
as for hk, we should just skip it. your comments were forcefully made to support yr anti-china views. if i were to be forced to be vocal about my believes, i would be black listed by the pro-china camp. despite my many opposite views to the china gov, i find your views too one sided and extreme and kinda distant from actual facts.
** Things can be related without implying ownership - ** - - - i agree.
you have a great day too. back to biz, are u serious about going to india? whats yr scale? need 10 ppl there or 200?
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> He he, I thought u knew some chinese. I meant:¡¦¡¦how are you? I guess u know some Chinese¡¦¡¦ (sorry I dunno how to type Chinese in pc)
>>
>
>I know some Chinese - basic phrases. The rest I can often infer if you use Hanxi characters (I know these from
>Sino-based Japanese character readings).
>
>>If you want me to clarify just one thing, there is this Taiwanese inhabitants¡¦ ethnic origin which is kinda interesting: I think there are 3 major types of Taiwanese if you group them by ethnic type.
>>
>>Type1: the mountaineers ¡V they are the¡¦¡¦natives¡¦¡¦ (depends on how far back you wanna trace) of Taiwan. Like the red Indians of n. America, they are the minorities of Taiwan now.
>>
>>Type2: descendants of migrants from mainland china (mostly from Fujian¡¦s province, right opposite Taiwan island), who have been crossing the strait back and forth for the last few hundred years before the ¡§civil¡¨ war. These ppl and the ppl of fujian province speaks the same kind of dialect (I speak that too).
>>
>>Type3: the (descendants of) nationalists (or the KMT - - KuoMingTang) who lost the war to the communists in mainland and retreated to Taiwan.
>>
>
>Actually you are making my very point here. My original post was this "China has a false claim to Taiwan as being a part of China".
>
>As I said, Taiwan has never been a part of China. Not before the communists came into power and not after.
>
>And I see we are even on agreement with regards to inhabitants. The original inhabitants were not Chinese (any of the 50+ ethnic groups) and not Han. They were "Austronesians" and depending on who you believe related to Maori or some Polynesians, etc. All that really matters is again, they were not Chinese, nor did China settle or have a right to Taiwan.
>
>Yes, over recent centuries, trading occurred between Chinese and Taiwan. Some Chinese, as one would expect, settled in Taiwan. You mentioned Fujinese and of course, the Hakka settled in Taiwan as well - Hakka settle all over the world and you'll find many Hakka in India as well (one of my friends is Hakka).
>
>When KMT was forced out of mainland China by the communists they came to Taiwan. But again, that doesn't mean that Taiwan automatically became a part of mainland China nor does it mean that Taiwan has been a part of China for 5,000 years - because it hasn't.
>
>This historical reality has been lost on most of the world's population because they don't know history and the media networks don't want to waste time explaining reality or perhaps they don't know it was well.
>
>>When the KMT and their families fled to Taiwan, they were not welcomed by type2 and the KMT kinda killed and tortured them. That¡¦s why some of yr Taiwanese friends claim ¡§I am Taiwanese, I am NOT Chinese¡¨. Type2 used to hate type3 but now they get along much better, esp under the threat of the mainland.
>>
>
>It is true when KMT came to Taiwan, they came as invaders, which they were (since Taiwan was not and has never been a part of China) and importantly to underscore this was the KMT's Feb. 1945 massacre of the natives.
>
>>If you look at the culture, language and everything, most asians regard both type2 and type3 to be Chinese (or ethnic Han) and they constitute about 95% or more of the island¡¦s population. If you argue that type2 is not ethnic Han, type3 (plus decedents) also constitute about 40% of the population. So, I think to say no inhabitants of Taiwan is of ethnic Han is very wrong. I guess you know the official name of Taiwan is ¡¥¡¦Republic of China¡¦¡¦ ¡V the KMT named it and they were hoping to re-occupy the mainland one day. The airline of Taiwan is ¡¥¡¦China airline¡¦¡¦ (there are new airlines with other names now).
>>
>
>You are missing the point. It doesn't matter what language or dialect the people speak. If a billion Chinese move to America and we all start speaking Chinese and use Chinese customs that doesn't make America a part of China nor does it mean that America has always been a part of China.
>
>Yes, non-native population groups including Han have overwhelmed Taiwan. Because of that Chinese culture is the dominant culture in Taiwan but that doesn't change the fact that Taiwan is still not a part of China nor has it ever been a part of a China.
>
>Does mainland China actually have the arrogance to believe that they own a Chinese person and the land they own and country they reside in simpy because the Chinese person has Han DNA or speaks a dialect of Chinese?
>
>>I would consider type2 to be ethnic Han, actually. Before the overthrown of The Qing dynasty, they got into a conflict (or war) with the japs and they had to ¡§give¡¨ Taiwan to the japs as part of the apology package. And
>>
>
>But if you are going to go back to all these dynasties then Vietnam is still a part of China since the Chinese ruled it for a 1,000 years or so. And actually, we hear so much about Chinese civilization existing for 5,000+ years, yet the concept of a unified China and of it being "China" itself do not occur until long after "China's" existence.
>
>>
>Japan ruled Taiwan for 50 yrs before they lost the WW2. Under the Japs, Taiwan was more advanced in social structure, so they hated the type3 when they came and took control. Unless you don¡¦t consider Qing dynasty as China, Taiwan WAS part of china (just not the current communist ruled china).
>>
>
>And this raises the whole other issue as well - is the current government in China legitimate?
>
>>Recently, the opposition party leaders of Taiwan are going to china (pls google the news yrself) and they stated the need of peace for¡¦¡¦brothers¡¦¡¦. Believe me, many ppl regard Taiwan and its ppl as Chinese, including many current inhabitants of Taiwan. It¡¦s the unfriendly approach of China that¡¦s causing some ppl in Taiwan to re-identify themselves as Taiwanese.
>>
>
>Again, it's not wrong to say that the majority of Taiwanese inhabitants are Chinese, however, Taiwan is not a part of China.
>
>If we can't say that, I'm worried about San Francisco. We have a huge population of Chinese inhabitants so does that mean China now has claim to San Francisco?
>
>>I m not a history expert nor a current affair specialist, but I m Chinese and I know the littlest any Chinese know. I hv many many relatives and friends in China, Taiwan and hk. I speak the languages, studied part of the history and visited China, Taiwan countless times. And I hv lived in hk for a decade, btw, what you said about hk was not very true either¡K. Hk ppl loved and hated the brits (same for Indians?),
>>
>
>Believe me, I'm not saying the British were saints and I'm not about to condone Opium wars and such behavior or putting down the Boxer Rebellion. Yes, those went on in those days with all involved parties though it would make us cringe today.
>
>All I'm saying is that we know that Chinese inhabited the rock called HK which had very few natural resources and Chinese inhabitated mainland China with vast resources.
>
>China was ruled by the Chinese during the same time Britain ruled HK. And during that time period we see that HK went from a little rock to financial powerhouse in short order while China floundered and eventually went back centuries in barbarity under the communists - both places had Chinese workers and inhabitants the difference was where the rule of law came from.
>
>Britain, while owning HK, still maintained a rule of law
>and I would suggest based on all that I've seen - like the tens of thousands of people who have fled or are fleeing HK after Chinese rule - the people felt better and safer under British rule than Chinese rule. From what I have read, HKer's have less rights and more fear under Chinese rule in 2005 than they did with British rule in 1997.
>
>Again, I'm not saying Britian were saints or anything, just looking at two competing interests (China vs Britain).
>
>>
>Its true and sad that hk has lost some freedom since the handover, but there weren¡¦t lots of freedom/fairness before the brits knew they had to return hk to china.
>>
>
>Yeah, but still under Britain, would you imagine that you could have a Tianamen Square Massacre in the 1980's or 1990's? The world media wouldn't let that nor would financial markets.
>
>Even before the handover, HK had a right to private property there were also a strong court system while China only recently allowed private property ownership and their court system is frightening.
>
>>Actually, there are some horror stories about china tht you didn¡¦t mention or know. But it looks like things are improving (slowly in some areas).
>>
>
>I actually have a whole hard drive of that, but I didn't want to flood the list. :) I was just trying to list a few of the main ones that list members might know of, had heard of or could easily verify. In the US, most people are shocked to ever know that China attacked India. And it amazes me how many ignorant American kids run around chanting "Free Tibet!" and when I ask from "Who"? They don't know. It's like they don't know who invaded and is occupying Tibet.
>
>>Back to IT/software in china? I think there might be some advantages there.. over 150 million net users ( I think this is not accurate estimate) and over 200 million cell phone users (this is more accurate, I m a share holder of china mobile). I just came back from shanghai, cant believe they blocked yahoo.com. millions in yahoo.com.cn though.
>>
>
>Obviously China has much potential both as a market place of consumers and as resource for technology. And as I said, the majority of Chinese living in the mainland are victims themselves of either brainwashing or being held back from progress. But these are very uncertain times and will continue to be so as China tries to play both sides of the fence in holding people in check and playing in international commerce.
>
>>Gee, this is taking me hours to type. hope we can talk more about biz. ;)
>>
>>ps. If you can take jerry yang (Taiwan)( are you near to yahoo¡¦s hq?) to watch a game of basketball when YaoMing (China) is coming to town (sorry to hear the rockets are out for the season), there is something on the left arm in which every ethnic Han is supposed to have¡K. ( very mythical, but interesting). You can double check for yrself if China and Taiwan are ethnically related. : )))))
>>
>
>I not debating Taiwan and China are ethnically related. The same can be said about Singapore and China and Singapore and India. In fact, following that argument since Yao Ming is living in the US with permanent residency (and I'm sure he'll seek citizenship here if he can pay off his communist bosses in China and they okay it) and Jerry Yang is living in the US and is a US citizen to my knowledge, does that mean that China can claim it owns the NBA, Silicon Valley and Yahoo?
>
>Things can be related without implying ownership - that was my whole point.
>
>Have a great day.
>
>- TH Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 10, 2005 9:15 pm | | re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | >you have a great day too. back to biz, are u serious about going to india? whats yr scale? need 10 ppl there or 200?
>
I'm very serious about India although I'm still in the information gathering phase.
I have thought about this for a couple years now but it seemed far fetched back then for a little startup (talking just a few people)to take this path, but given many changes in the marketplace, improved Indian infrastructure, falling flight costs to India, VOIP for communication, etc., it's much more accessible and can be cost effective even for us little guys.
I still have a lot of legwork to do to do it right.
- TravisPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 11, 2005 3:55 am | | re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | i was thinking something similar, esp free VoIP, etc., but i think it still requires you to be there several times year. i wonder if it would help if several little guys going to a same place (to share resources for their own projects) can make it work better. ?
> Travis wrote:
> >you have a great day too. back to biz, are u serious about going to india? whats yr scale? need 10 ppl there or 200?
>>
>
>I'm very serious about India although I'm still in the information gathering phase.
>
>I have thought about this for a couple years now but it seemed far fetched back then for a little startup (talking just a few people)to take this path, but given many changes in the marketplace, improved Indian infrastructure, falling flight costs to India, VOIP for communication, etc., it's much more accessible and can be cost effective even for us little guys.
>
>I still have a lot of legwork to do to do it right.
>
>
>- Travis Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 11, 2005 6:20 am | | re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> i was thinking something similar, esp free VoIP, etc., but i think it still requires you to be there several times year. i wonder if it would help if several little guys going to a same place (to share resources for their own projects) can make it work better. ?
>
I totally agree with about the need for regular face to face meetings. Either you or a senior member of the team has to be there for face to face meetings be it India, China, heck even for remote sites within the US, I would do the same.
This is why I found Lawrence's concept intriguing, because he was looking to pool together resources that could be shared with other startups and also he was going to be spending time there it seemed as business or product manager.
- THPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 11, 2005 6:42 am | | re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Abhinav Goyal | | I think you should look at the option of incubating at one of the IITs. Advantages
1. Infrastructure/place available for much cheaper in incubation centres
2. IIT talent pool available to tap into - Profs can be on the advisory board, can recruit IITians
Disadvantages
1. Choice in terms of places limited. Delhi/Bombay most logical IIT to choose with Chennai coming in at 3rd.
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> i was thinking something similar, esp free VoIP, etc., but i think it still requires you to be there several times year. i wonder if it would help if several little guys going to a same place (to share resources for their own projects) can make it work better. ?
>>
>
>I totally agree with about the need for regular face to face meetings. Either you or a senior member of the team has to be there for face to face meetings be it India, China, heck even for remote sites within the US, I would do the same.
>
>This is why I found Lawrence's concept intriguing, because he was looking to pool together resources that could be shared with other startups and also he was going to be spending time there it seemed as business or product manager.
>
>- THPrivate Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | May 11, 2005 11:53 am | | re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # | 
Tushar Chaudhary | | Well,
Now that the discussion is back on to the original subject, here are my two cents on it:
1. The choice of venue would (or at least should) depend on the industry you're looking at. If you're looking at a BPO, then there's a number of choices, as have already been discussed, with Gurgaon having the advantage of being the first-mover and the talent pool available. Cons would include probably paying more for that talent pool than in other cities. So it's your standard Price-Quality trade-off.
2. In the IT industry, Bangalore has the first mover's advantage and vast talent pool. However, lately there's been a lot of noise about it's lacking in scalable infrastructure. Traffic jams, water issues, etc. are causing lots of people to consider moving out of there.
Then there is the poaching issue, so prevalent in the software industry.
Contrast this with the National Capital Region with growing suburbs like Gurgaon, Noida, Greater Noida. There is also a substantial number of people in the southern cities, wanting to move back to the north and not having too many options. Club that with affinity with IIT-Delhi and you've got a decent enough proposition.
Not trying to undermine Bangalore in any way, or Hyderabad/Pune for that matter. Just that with the NCR, one has the chance to fill in that niche.
That goes for the location.
Clubbing resources, I'm seeing a lot of that happening. Brokers for Outsourcing are sprouting up and hunting around for call-centres/BPOs with spare capacity and presenting a consolidated picture to the client. The next natural step would be the consolidation of the infrastructure itself. More than the cost savings, it presents a bigger, holistic picture to the client.
Does anyone want to form a startup in India?
Yes, I do! Scrounging around for ideas and people. So if you're looking for someone in India to get things running or just want to discuss, I'm following this thread, and I also read my PMs regularly :)
Tushar
> Abhinav Goyal wrote:
> I think you should look at the option of incubating at one of the IITs. Advantages
>
>1. Infrastructure/place available for much cheaper in incubation centres
>
>2. IIT talent pool available to tap into - Profs can be on the advisory board, can recruit IITians
>
>Disadvantages
>
>1. Choice in terms of places limited. Delhi/Bombay most logical IIT to choose with Chennai coming in at 3rd.
>
>
>
>> Travis wrote:
>> > s. pokta wrote:
>>> i was thinking something similar, esp free VoIP, etc., but i think it still requires you to be there several times year. i wonder if it would help if several little guys going to a same place (to share resources for their own projects) can make it work better. ?
>>>
>>
>>I totally agree with about the need for regular face to face meetings. Either you or a senior member of the team has to be there for face to face meetings be it India, China, heck even for remote sites within the US, I would do the same.
>>
>>This is why I found Lawrence's concept intriguing, because he was looking to pool together resources that could be shared with other startups and also he was going to be spending time there it seemed as business or product manager.
>>
>>- TH Private Reply to Tushar Chaudhary | | May 11, 2005 2:34 pm | | re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
bruce douglas | | for my $0.02 worth...
various postings have talked to some degree about starting a functioning business in india/china/etc...
some of the postings have talked about the need to meet on a periodic basis, and other issues. other postings have gotten into the locations, and the pros/cons of the areas...
if you're serious about starting a business, i would argue that these issues are secondary. i would argue that if you get a small team of developers/marketing/sales then you can put together a sucessful small business that can grow. i would argue that you can do this as a Sweat Equity/Boot-Strapping operation.
this implies that the founders/developers are serious, and willing to forego immediate compensation from the venture until it generates revenue.
however, i would state that the vast majority of people who wnat to call themselves entrepreneurs, are not willing to get together with others that they don't actually know/trust to do this kind of operation/venture.
the current state of technolgy is that if you put into place 10-20 servers with the appropriate tools you can create a developement environment for software development. you can have your developers be anywhere, and have them working on the codebase. the project mgr can manage the project in a remote manner as well... marketing/sales functions can also occur in a remote manner...
there are free/crude tools to do this right now. what's lacking are the 5-6 guts who can agree on the idea to start, and who really have the commit to create this kind of venture.
i would argue that if there was a team that was willing to do this, you could be up/running/developing code within 1-2 weeks, and depending on the application you go go for, you could be generating revenue within 3-6 months...
if you're serious about further discussions of this model, hit me up.
comments/thoughts/etc..
-bruce
bedouglas@earthlink.net
Private Reply to bruce douglas | | May 12, 2005 4:53 am | | re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Private Private | | Hello All,
Some think-thoughts:
1. To get a Real Feel of issues of doing business in India... one option is to actually hop over and work in a company doing your kind of business... be a temp. I think there's little point in getting too Analytical about things these days: too many fast changing variables to account for.
a> I think this is a solid option to *learn first
hand* about the economics / culture / HR issues /
politics / legalities of doing business this side
of the world.
b> Earn while you learn isn't just for college kids.
2. On a place to set up shop? I think Pune is a strong Contender
a> HR angle: Pune is known as the "Oxford of the East":
Very high density of students - computer siences and
engineering plus foreign language skills
like: http://www.isquareit.ac.in
and with IIT Powai [Mumbai] less than 3 hrs away by
road
b> Infrastructure: *Many* IT parks. See inlined
References for details
http://www.maharashtraitparks.com/itparks_about_pune.php
http://www.punerealestate.com/ITpark_hinjewadipune.htm
http://www.american.edu/initeb/mk5916a/pune.htm
http://www.domain-b.com/companies/companies_v/vascon_engineers/20030331_expansion.htm
c> IT companies in Pune: Some leading edge
companies:
http://www.nevisnetworks.com/
http://www.iopsis.com/aboutus/aboutus.html
http://www.airtightnetworks.net/main/index.html
and more...
To give you an example of the scale of some of the Ops.
http://www.punediary.com/itcomp.html
d> There is a recent issue of "Load Shedding" of the power grid but it's easily solved thru Power backup / inverters. Also the timings are regularised so one can plan around a power cut. Otherwise why do you think point c> above happened?
3. On Bruce's line of argument: I agree for the most part barring this:
"however, i would state that the vast majority of people who wnat to call themselves entrepreneurs, are not willing to get together with others that they don't actually know/trust to do this kind of operation/venture."
I think Trust would be a central object for Bruce's idea to work. One *has to know* that the other guys have the stuff to make things work.
More later if you wish... but now I must run... time to have fun.
cherios and good luck,
Aditya.Private Reply to Private Private | | May 12, 2005 6:34 am | | re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | hi, can you guys provide a salarly reference for the locations you mentioned. usually i compare fresh college graduate between places. (in usd, pls, thnks) cheers.
> Aditya Athalye wrote:
> Hello All,
>
>Some think-thoughts:
>
>1. To get a Real Feel of issues of doing business in India... one option is to actually hop over and work in a company doing your kind of business... be a temp. I think there's little point in getting too Analytical about things these days: too many fast changing variables to account for.
>
> a> I think this is a solid option to *learn first
> hand* about the economics / culture / HR issues /
> politics / legalities of doing business this side
> of the world.
>
> b> Earn while you learn isn't just for college kids.
>
>2. On a place to set up shop? I think Pune is a strong Contender
>
> a> HR angle: Pune is known as the "Oxford of the East":
> Very high density of students - computer siences and
> engineering plus foreign language skills
>
> like: http://www.isquareit.ac.in
> and with IIT Powai [Mumbai] less than 3 hrs away by
> road
>
> b> Infrastructure: *Many* IT parks. See inlined
> References for details
> http://www.maharashtraitparks.com/itparks_about_pune.php
> http://www.punerealestate.com/ITpark_hinjewadipune.htm
> http://www.american.edu/initeb/mk5916a/pune.htm
>http://www.domain-b.com/companies/companies_v/vascon_engineers/20030331_expansion.htm
>
> c> IT companies in Pune: Some leading edge
> companies:
>
> http://www.nevisnetworks.com/
> http://www.iopsis.com/aboutus/aboutus.html
> http://www.airtightnetworks.net/main/index.html
> and more...
>
> To give you an example of the scale of some of the Ops.
> http://www.punediary.com/itcomp.html
>
>
> d> There is a recent issue of "Load Shedding" of the power grid but it's easily solved thru Power backup / inverters. Also the timings are regularised so one can plan around a power cut. Otherwise why do you think point c> above happened?
>
>
>3. On Bruce's line of argument: I agree for the most part barring this:
>
>"however, i would state that the vast majority of people who wnat to call themselves entrepreneurs, are not willing to get together with others that they don't actually know/trust to do this kind of operation/venture."
>
>I think Trust would be a central object for Bruce's idea to work. One *has to know* that the other guys have the stuff to make things work.
>
>More later if you wish... but now I must run... time to have fun.
>
>cherios and good luck,
>Aditya. Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 12, 2005 6:57 am | | re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Abhinav Goyal | | It varies based on a number of parameters and hence I think some more information will be required to avoid flooding you with tons of data :)
Need atleast the following inputs to filter info
1. College - freshers at different colleges fetch different remuneration. depending on whether they are from a college ranked Grade A, B or C.
Grade A - IITs and some other institutions (BITS, some NITs)
Grade B - Some RECs, local colleges - when I say "local", it means that the entrance for these colleges is locally administered and not through a national level entrance exam
2. Industry segment - Telecom fetches more than mainframes, search engines pay more than telecom, etc
> s. pokta wrote:
> hi, can you guys provide a salarly reference for the locations you mentioned. usually i compare fresh college graduate between places. (in usd, pls, thnks) cheers.
>Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | May 12, 2005 7:35 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | 1. top colleges in the area, above average graduate, able to do development work after a few years.
2. IT, web application, software design (which might be applicable to telecom sector)
thnks.
> Abhinav Goyal wrote:
> It varies based on a number of parameters and hence I think some more information will be required to avoid flooding you with tons of data :)
>
>Need atleast the following inputs to filter info
>
>1. College - freshers at different colleges fetch different remuneration. depending on whether they are from a college ranked Grade A, B or C.
>
>Grade A - IITs and some other institutions (BITS, some NITs)
>Grade B - Some RECs, local colleges - when I say "local", it means that the entrance for these colleges is locally administered and not through a national level entrance exam
>
>2. Industry segment - Telecom fetches more than mainframes, search engines pay more than telecom, etc
>
>
>> s. pokta wrote:
>> hi, can you guys provide a salarly reference for the locations you mentioned. usually i compare fresh college graduate between places. (in usd, pls, thnks) cheers.
>> Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 12, 2005 9:33 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Abhinav Goyal | | I would say about 10K USD per annum (goes up to 12K per annum) for an entry level fresher from IIT - most of these guys are able to do code almost immediately and are really strong in software development in a couple of years time.
The salary for freshers from top local colleges may be around 7-8K USD per annum.
> s. pokta wrote:
> 1. top colleges in the area, above average graduate, able to do development work after a few years.
>2. IT, web application, software design (which might be applicable to telecom sector)
>
>thnks.
>
>> Abhinav Goyal wrote:
>> It varies based on a number of parameters and hence I think some more information will be required to avoid flooding you with tons of data :)
>>
>>Need atleast the following inputs to filter info
>>
>>1. College - freshers at different colleges fetch different remuneration. depending on whether they are from a college ranked Grade A, B or C.
>>
>>Grade A - IITs and some other institutions (BITS, some NITs)
>>Grade B - Some RECs, local colleges - when I say "local", it means that the entrance for these colleges is locally administered and not through a national level entrance exam
>>
>>2. Industry segment - Telecom fetches more than mainframes, search engines pay more than telecom, etc
>>
>>
>>> s. pokta wrote:
>>> hi, can you guys provide a salarly reference for the locations you mentioned. usually i compare fresh college graduate between places. (in usd, pls, thnks) cheers.
>>>Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | May 12, 2005 5:28 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | In my experience, some of the best and most cost effective software programmers are those that did not formally study computer science. Instead, they had innate talent and an early passion to teach themselves, often tinkering around or programming since they were 10 years old.
This is often the same with foreign language learners. You can go to school and formally study Chinese for 4 years at Harvard but not be able to order dim sum. Or you can be self taught because of your interest and passion and be fluent - I've seen this many times. But on your resume, with established companies, they often look for boiler-plate qualifications such as "Harvard Asian Studies Program" instead of "read, write, speak Chinese fluently."
Back to self taught software programmers. Even though they are very talented, they often feel insecure because they don't have a degree, thus, they will work for less money and work much harder than graduates from a prestigious university program.
This is the type of programmer I seek out in the US and there is a large pool of these. Does this type of programmer exist in India? If so, how do we reach them?
- TH
> Abhinav Goyal wrote:
> It varies based on a number of parameters and hence I think some more information will be required to avoid flooding you with tons of data :)
>
>Need atleast the following inputs to filter info
>
>1. College - freshers at different colleges fetch different remuneration. depending on whether they are from a college ranked Grade A, B or C.
>
>Grade A - IITs and some other institutions (BITS, some NITs)
>Grade B - Some RECs, local colleges - when I say "local", it means that the entrance for these colleges is locally administered and not through a national level entrance exam
>
>2. Industry segment - Telecom fetches more than mainframes, search engines pay more than telecom, etcPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 12, 2005 5:33 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> 1. top colleges in the area, above average graduate, able to do development work after a few years.
>2. IT, web application, software design (which might be applicable to telecom sector)
>
>thnks.
What I would really be interested is some one who does top notch work and can hit the ground running.
If you hire above average graduates from top colleges you are going to pay a premium for their grades and the school they graduated from. They also may have an attitude that they are "special".
However, there is no guarantee that studying programming (or any subject for 4 years) will make you as proficient as a natural whiz or a person who is self taught and be actually writing programs for years.
I'm in my late 30's and in my age group I saw this all the time. The best programmers I knew and know were all self-taught and non-studying computer programming formally. About half never even went to college because they were too busy writing programs and working.
I'm not saying college isn't valuable for the graduate or employer but there are other options as well and normally you pay a premium for a top notch graduate who won't have the productivity or more importantly real life experience of a non-college grad who will take "less" money than the top notch graduate.Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 12, 2005 5:36 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Abhinav Goyal wrote:
> I would say about 10K USD per annum (goes up to 12K per annum) for an entry level fresher from IIT - most of these guys are able to do code almost immediately and are really strong in software development in a couple of years time.
>
>The salary for freshers from top local colleges may be around 7-8K USD per annum.
Any idea on experienced programmers who didn't go to college?
Does that pool exist?Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 12, 2005 5:40 pm | | The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
Lawrence Sinclair | | Bruce,
I posted the original message asking if anyone would like to start up a co-operative incubator type operation in India.
The problem with the sweat-equity model that you support is primarily as you point out: it is hard to get the five or six guys to agree on one idea. This is why most sweat equity ventures are made up of one or two people at that stage in their development. Usually just one.
One person can do far more today than they could fifteen years ago. But if one goes to India, that one person could hire two to five other people to fill gaps in the entrepreneurs skills (and interests, e.g. accounting, system administration) and free time to focus on the key elements of the business (technology choice, system design, innovative features and functionality, seeking venture capital, marketing, business development).
Most Indians are not interested in equity. They want prestigious titles and employers, cash, and H1B visas. All of these help them get respect from their parents, and the best spouces. The first two are likely what most Americans, outside of Silicon Valley want, with the addition of good health insurance benefits.
But people who don't want equity are still great team members. And more reliable in some senses. Equity holders are like volunteer workers. They figure you are lucky they deem kind enough to come into work. And if they lose interest or want to run the show, they leave or struggle for power.
I think it makes most sense if the founder or two hold most of the equity, and share some with those employees who value it, to engender a good incentive structure. To those who value cash, as most do, one must pay cash. In India, that means a drain of an extra couple thousand dollars a month for people who would cost twenty thousand dollars a month in San Francisco.
But there is a fixed cost for (some machines) and office space, internet connections, and rent. These I would propose sharing. Also, when I am not working on ventures, I like to be around entrepreneurs, because I think they are interesting people. But I don't see the entrepreneurs as every participant in the venture, just the founders. Essentially, those who are not getting paid. And especially, those who work, and pay.
While I do agree that one could be generating revenue in 3 to 6 months. I am sure everyone knows that is not the same as covering ones operating costs, let alone making a profit. An entrepreneur needs to be able to fund their business for at the very very least, a year, while losing money each and every month. That buys time to bring in other investors to validate the equity you have built and to bring in cash to cover the business in the two to five years it takes to become profitable.
An operation set up in India could be brought to the revenue generation phase in six months. Perhaps. Then the founding entrepreneur could leave India, return to the US, preferrably to Silicon Valley, and seek venture capital funding, or marketing, or other activity to bring the venture to profitability. All the while, because the operation is in India, that founder can fund the operation with two to five thousand dollars a month. This is the sort of money a person can easily earn consulting or doing other work. The venture can be self funded for as long as is necessary.
I know this method works. I have done it. Except I never spent the time in India, which I think is a necessary step to get things up to speed with the right vision and direction.
A colleague of mine is in India right now, looking at potential sites for my next operation. We are considering Goa and Cochin (because I would like to be in a beautiful place while I work, and costs are potentially lower than Bangalore, and I don't like the idea of breathing polluted air for six months to a year). I welcome anyone who wants to leverage the research, knowledge, and basic infrastructure I set up.
-Lawrence.
> bruce douglas wrote:
> for my $0.02 worth...
>
>various postings have talked to some degree about starting a functioning business in india/china/etc...
>
>some of the postings have talked about the need to meet on a periodic basis, and other issues. other postings have gotten into the locations, and the pros/cons of the areas...
>
>if you're serious about starting a business, i would argue that these issues are secondary. i would argue that if you get a small team of developers/marketing/sales then you can put together a sucessful small business that can grow. i would argue that you can do this as a Sweat Equity/Boot-Strapping operation.
>
>this implies that the founders/developers are serious, and willing to forego immediate compensation from the venture until it generates revenue.
>
>however, i would state that the vast majority of people who wnat to call themselves entrepreneurs, are not willing to get together with others that they don't actually know/trust to do this kind of operation/venture.
>
>the current state of technolgy is that if you put into place 10-20 servers with the appropriate tools you can create a developement environment for software development. you can have your developers be anywhere, and have them working on the codebase. the project mgr can manage the project in a remote manner as well... marketing/sales functions can also occur in a remote manner...
>
>there are free/crude tools to do this right now. what's lacking are the 5-6 guts who can agree on the idea to start, and who really have the commit to create this kind of venture.
>
>i would argue that if there was a team that was willing to do this, you could be up/running/developing code within 1-2 weeks, and depending on the application you go go for, you could be generating revenue within 3-6 months...
>
>if you're serious about further discussions of this model, hit me up.
>
>comments/thoughts/etc..
>
>-bruce
>bedouglas@earthlink.net
>
>
>Private Reply to Lawrence Sinclair | | May 12, 2005 7:36 pm | | re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > bruce douglas wrote:
> for my $0.02 worth...
>
>various postings have talked to some degree about starting a functioning business in india/china/etc...
>
>some of the postings have talked about the need to meet on a periodic basis, and other issues. other postings have gotten into the locations, and the pros/cons of the areas...
>
>if you're serious about starting a business, i would argue that these issues are secondary. i would argue that if you get a small team of developers/marketing/sales then you can put together a sucessful small business that can grow. i would argue that you can do this as a Sweat Equity/Boot-Strapping operation.
>
>this implies that the founders/developers are serious, and willing to forego immediate compensation from the venture until it generates revenue.
>
>however, i would state that the vast majority of people who wnat to call themselves entrepreneurs, are not willing to get together with others that they don't actually know/trust to do this kind of operation/venture.
>
I agree with all this. By the way, I think finally after the dot-bomb/dot-com bubble rise and implosion we finally are back to 1995 again in terms of finding these individuals. There are still many Lottery Ticket Louts and Wannabe Poser Entrepreneurs who talk a good game but don't want to roll up their sleeves and do any work let alone sweat. I know there are good individuals out there but one really has to separate the wheat from the chaff. Over the past view years I interviewed and talked to literally hundreds of such folk to the point that I have pretty good radar on this. A lot of this was based on warped perceptions of reality but I met a lot of people that did great work in the past or were capable of doing great work in the present and wanted to be involved in the ground floor of a startup but they just were not prepared to scrimp or forgo anything. They either wanted market rate salaries with full bennies or at least 50 to 60% of their market rate salary.
The idea of working for equity only full time was out and even putting in 15 to 20 hours a week part time was frowned upon from what I found.
I haven't revisited this for the last 7 months or so, but I understand the market is thawing and people are more open to sweat equity and doing things the old fashioned way by boot strapping.
>the current state of technolgy is that if you put into place 10-20 servers with the appropriate tools you can create a developement environment for software development. you can have your developers be anywhere, and have them working on the codebase. the project mgr can manage the project in a remote manner as well... marketing/sales functions can also occur in a remote manner...
>
>there are free/crude tools to do this right now. what's lacking are the 5-6 guts who can agree on the idea to start, and who really have the commit to create this kind of venture.
>
Depending on the venture, I don't even think you need 10-20 servers (depending on your architecture and what you are doing) except perhaps for production.
But honestly, you can get 1 server to start and go from there or perhaps you have a dev server, and staging server, etc. You are right though, even if you setup your system from day one with you firewall, dbase server, app server,web server, image server, etc. you might get 10 or 20 servers - but they are dirt cheap now and so is rack space and bandwidth.
I remember paying $1,000 a month for an empty rack plus $1,000 per mbps! Remember those days! It wasn't that long ago. And a decent server with a couple scsi drives or raid and perhaps a 750 mhz proc or dual process could be $3,000 plus easily. Now I've seen 1u and 2u servers loaded to the gills (that are probably 10 times more powerful than before) for $1,200 and you can get them even less if you need to.
>i would argue that if there was a team that was willing to do this, you could be up/running/developing code within 1-2 weeks, and depending on the application you go go for, you could be generating revenue within 3-6 months...
>
>if you're serious about further discussions of this model, hit me up.
>
>comments/thoughts/etc..
This is very possible. Especially if going into the venture the legwork has been done on biz model, mrd/prd, etc. and everything is set to go.Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 12, 2005 8:03 pm | | re: The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
> Bruce,
>
>I posted the original message asking if anyone would like to start up a co-operative incubator type operation in India.
>
>The problem with the sweat-equity model that you support is primarily as you point out: it is hard to get the five or six guys to agree on one idea. This is why most sweat equity ventures are made up of one or two people at that stage in their development. Usually just one.
>
I think both Bruce and Lawrence bring up excellent points - both models are doable, each has its own benefits, pitfalls and risks.
>One person can do far more today than they could fifteen years ago. But if one goes to India, that one person could hire two to five other people to fill gaps in the entrepreneurs skills (and interests, e.g. accounting, system administration) and free time to focus on the key elements of the business (technology choice, system design, innovative features and functionality, seeking venture capital, marketing, business development).
>
>Most Indians are not interested in equity. They want prestigious titles and employers, cash, and H1B visas. All of these help them get respect from their parents, and the best spouces. The first two are likely what most Americans, outside of Silicon Valley want, with the addition of good health insurance benefits.
>
This is a great point. Also, it opens you up to more workers. For instance, I did meet some very capable people who wanted to work my venture but they had a house, family, etc. They couldn't work for free or even at a great deflated salary yet if I had funding they could be hired.
>But people who don't want equity are still great team members. And more reliable in some senses. Equity holders are like volunteer workers. They figure you are lucky they deem kind enough to come into work. And if they lose interest or want to run the show, they leave or struggle for power.
>
This is also true in many cases, not always. But when you pay someone they feel they are more obligated or have to perform. On the other hand, there are many dedicated people in this world who don't get paid but are willing to work themselves to the bone or even blow themselves up because of a cause they are associated with or believe in.
Ideally if you can find a good person who is passionate and will do it for sweat equity or a reduced salary they could be a great contributor.
>I think it makes most sense if the founder or two hold most of the equity, and share some with those employees who value it, to engender a good incentive structure. To those who value cash, as most do, one must pay cash. In India, that means a drain of an extra couple thousand dollars a month for people who would cost twenty thousand dollars a month in San Francisco.
>
In this case, you are right. If cash is the motivating item or a gating item to bring people in, then India suddenly has the cost savings advantage.
>While I do agree that one could be generating revenue in 3 to 6 months. I am sure everyone knows that is not the same as covering ones operating costs, let alone making a profit. An entrepreneur needs to be able to fund their business for at the very very least, a year, while losing money each and every month. That buys time to bring in other investors to validate the equity you have built and to bring in cash to cover the business in the two to five years it takes to become profitable.
>
And even if bringing in revenue and breaking even, it doesn take time to break even on a cashflow basis. In my last startup, we were breaking even after a few months, but it took 6 months or so later (and a major infusion of personal working capital) to break even on a cash flow basis.
>An operation set up in India could be brought to the revenue generation phase in six months. Perhaps. Then the founding entrepreneur could leave India, return to the US, preferrably to Silicon Valley, and seek venture capital funding, or marketing, or other activity to bring the venture to profitability. All the while, because the operation is in India, that founder can fund the operation with two to five thousand dollars a month. This is the sort of money a person can easily earn consulting or doing other work. The venture can be self funded for as long as is necessary.
>
>I know this method works. I have done it. Except I never spent the time in India, which I think is a necessary step to get things up to speed with the right vision and direction.
>
I also think the India model is perfect for proof of concept, first version of product, etc. It just opens up so many options and it's something that most entrepreneurs could seed on their own.
I only wish the India open was as accessible and on my radar in 2000 as it is now - things may have turned out far differently for a fraction of the cost.Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 13, 2005 2:17 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | tht sounds quite high. could u clarify whts IIT? i meant fresh university grad when i mentioned "college" grad. i recall "college" is something lower compare to university in india?
> Abhinav Goyal wrote:
> I would say about 10K USD per annum (goes up to 12K per annum) for an entry level fresher from IIT - most of these guys are able to do code almost immediately and are really strong in software development in a couple of years time.
>
>The salary for freshers from top local colleges may be around 7-8K USD per annum.
>
>
>> s. pokta wrote:
>> 1. top colleges in the area, above average graduate, able to do development work after a few years.
>>2. IT, web application, software design (which might be applicable to telecom sector)
>>
>>thnks.
>>
>>> Abhinav Goyal wrote:
>>> It varies based on a number of parameters and hence I think some more information will be required to avoid flooding you with tons of data :)
>>>
>>>Need atleast the following inputs to filter info
>>>
>>>1. College - freshers at different colleges fetch different remuneration. depending on whether they are from a college ranked Grade A, B or C.
>>>
>>>Grade A - IITs and some other institutions (BITS, some NITs)
>>>Grade B - Some RECs, local colleges - when I say "local", it means that the entrance for these colleges is locally administered and not through a national level entrance exam
>>>
>>>2. Industry segment - Telecom fetches more than mainframes, search engines pay more than telecom, etc
>>>
>>>
>>>> s. pokta wrote:
>>>> hi, can you guys provide a salarly reference for the locations you mentioned. usually i compare fresh college graduate between places. (in usd, pls, thnks) cheers.
>>>> Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 13, 2005 2:34 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | hey travis, thats me 25 yrs ago. but i found it boring after i was 15. more interested in physics later, then i found out most of my profs in college were just trying to get famous; snobbish nerds who were somewhat bitter about bill gates. :))
i think u r looking for hackers. :)) try another board. haha
proper education does make a difference though, if the guy also has the passion you mentioned. because self learners only learn things they are trying to do. they dont hv to understand the fundamentals or theory behind. sometimes, thats a lot of diff.
> Travis wrote:
> In my experience, some of the best and most cost effective software programmers are those that did not formally study computer science. Instead, they had innate talent and an early passion to teach themselves, often tinkering around or programming since they were 10 years old.
>
>This is often the same with foreign language learners. You can go to school and formally study Chinese for 4 years at Harvard but not be able to order dim sum. Or you can be self taught because of your interest and passion and be fluent - I've seen this many times. But on your resume, with established companies, they often look for boiler-plate qualifications such as "Harvard Asian Studies Program" instead of "read, write, speak Chinese fluently."
>
>Back to self taught software programmers. Even though they are very talented, they often feel insecure because they don't have a degree, thus, they will work for less money and work much harder than graduates from a prestigious university program.
>
>This is the type of programmer I seek out in the US and there is a large pool of these. Does this type of programmer exist in India? If so, how do we reach them?
>
>- TH
>
>> Abhinav Goyal wrote:
>> It varies based on a number of parameters and hence I think some more information will be required to avoid flooding you with tons of data :)
>>
>>Need atleast the following inputs to filter info
>>
>>1. College - freshers at different colleges fetch different remuneration. depending on whether they are from a college ranked Grade A, B or C.
>>
>>Grade A - IITs and some other institutions (BITS, some NITs)
>>Grade B - Some RECs, local colleges - when I say "local", it means that the entrance for these colleges is locally administered and not through a national level entrance exam
>>
>>2. Industry segment - Telecom fetches more than mainframes, search engines pay more than telecom, etc Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 13, 2005 2:43 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
s. pokta | | agree, only evaluating pay level. find it kinda expensive. we are prob 10 yrs late :)
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> 1. top colleges in the area, above average graduate, able to do development work after a few years.
>>2. IT, web application, software design (which might be applicable to telecom sector)
>>
>>thnks.
>
>What I would really be interested is some one who does top notch work and can hit the ground running.
>
>If you hire above average graduates from top colleges you are going to pay a premium for their grades and the school they graduated from. They also may have an attitude that they are "special".
>
>However, there is no guarantee that studying programming (or any subject for 4 years) will make you as proficient as a natural whiz or a person who is self taught and be actually writing programs for years.
>
>I'm in my late 30's and in my age group I saw this all the time. The best programmers I knew and know were all self-taught and non-studying computer programming formally. About half never even went to college because they were too busy writing programs and working.
>
>I'm not saying college isn't valuable for the graduate or employer but there are other options as well and normally you pay a premium for a top notch graduate who won't have the productivity or more importantly real life experience of a non-college grad who will take "less" money than the top notch graduate. Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 13, 2005 3:08 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> hey travis, thats me 25 yrs ago. but i found it boring after i was 15. more interested in physics later, then i found out most of my profs in college were just trying to get famous; snobbish nerds who were somewhat bitter about bill gates. :))
>
>i think u r looking for hackers. :)) try another board. haha
>
hahaha. Okay, hackers can be good. But you know what I mean. ;)
>proper education does make a difference though, if the guy also has the passion you mentioned. because self learners only learn things they are trying to do. they dont hv to understand the fundamentals or theory behind. sometimes, thats a lot of diff.
>
Yes, this is true. There is a lot to be said for college in that you become "well rounded" by taking classes you might not normally take so you might get some history classes, language classes, comparitive religion classes. There is value in that as well.
So I wouldn't out of hand reject self-taught people or top uni grades, each can brings something of value to the company.Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 13, 2005 3:33 am | | re: re: re: does anyone want to form a startup in india!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> agree, only evaluating pay level. find it kinda expensive. we are prob 10 yrs late :)
>
How does these rates compare to programmers in China of same experience level?
What can we expect to pay? A few years ago, a former co-worker of mine was paying (if I remember correctly) some pretty darn good programmers around $500 a month and that was considered a good salary.
But I remember there was more a communication situation due to weaker English skills in China (at least at that time and with the people he had).Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 13, 2005 6:41 am | | re: re: The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
Abhinav Goyal | | Travis,
Need to reply to a lot of posts - will do as soon as I can get through them. Replies for this thread inlined here
> Travis wrote:
>>Most Indians are not interested in equity. They want prestigious titles and employers, cash, and H1B visas. All of these help them get respect from their parents, and the best spouces.
[abhinav] Yes, dont expect too many people keen on startups in India - there are some but tough to find. People here have an affinity for big companies and brands - when I quit Motorola for an unknown startup, people looked at me as I if was barking mad making claims of moon being made of cheese. :)
>
>I also think the India model is perfect for proof of concept, first version of product, etc. It just opens up so many options and it's something that most entrepreneurs could seed on their own.
>
>I only wish the India open was as accessible and on my radar in 2000 as it is now - things may have turned out far differently for a fraction of the cost.
[abhinav] Initial prototype in India? Absolutely not unless you are sure of the team. A problem with the Indian IT segment is that it is services driven and the product thinking has just not percolated through. So, assemble the right team.Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | May 13, 2005 7:03 am | | re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Abhinav Goyal | | Yes, with the IT boom in India, salaries are that high at entry level.
However, when you say above average at IIT, that means good analytical skills, little learning time and very professional work straight away. There are some "good programmers" who can get the job done but that job doesnt scale - so you need to design modules and give them. The kind of people I am talking about - you just give them the modules and they deliver. Remember Asok in Dilbert comics? :)
And apologize for the abbreviations
IIT - Indian Institute of Technology - totally 7 thus far
NIT - National Inst. of Tech.
REC - Regional Engineering Colleges
Total NITs + RECs - 17 in number
BITS - Birla Institute of Tech and Science - best private college in India
Also, college applies to a particular school. In India, when you say school, it refers to all stages of education from kindergarten to High School only. An institute where you study to get a Degree/Diploma is a college :)
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> agree, only evaluating pay level. find it kinda expensive. we are prob 10 yrs late :)
>>
>
>How does these rates compare to programmers in China of same experience level?
>
>What can we expect to pay? A few years ago, a former co-worker of mine was paying (if I remember correctly) some pretty darn good programmers around $500 a month and that was considered a good salary.
>
>But I remember there was more a communication situation due to weaker English skills in China (at least at that time and with the people he had).Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | May 13, 2005 4:47 pm | | re: re: re: The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Abhinav Goyal wrote:
> Travis,
>
>Need to reply to a lot of posts - will do as soon as I can get through them. Replies for this thread inlined here
>
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights.
>Most Indians are not interested in equity. They want prestigious titles and employers, cash, and H1B visas. All of these help them get respect from their parents, and the best spouces.
>
>[abhinav] Yes, dont expect too many people keen on startups in India - there are some but tough to find. People here have an affinity for big companies and brands - when I quit Motorola for an unknown startup, people looked at me as I if was barking mad making claims of moon being made of cheese. :)
>
I see. This is similar to Japan. In Japan, the organization you are with often carries more prestige than the position you hold or work that you do.
For instance, a Marketing secretary (or even the Janitor) at a prestigious company like Sumitomo could have higher prestige than a Marketing Manager at a much smaller or unknown company.
>
>[abhinav] Initial prototype in India? Absolutely not unless you are sure of the team. A problem with the Indian IT segment is that it is services driven and the product thinking has just not percolated through. So, assemble the right team.
>
For initial prototype here is what I was thinking and I'd like to get your take.
If I have a very detailed Product Requirements Doc and Functional Spec is that something that could be handed off and could be executed in India?
- TravisPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 13, 2005 7:28 pm | | re: The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
Rajiv Sharma | | Hello Travis
If you do have a solid Product Requirements Doc and Functional Specs then I myself can surely deliver a clean bug free working prototype.
The important factor is communication and review meetings that need to go on. There must be defined time frames and testing guidelines for you and us to follow.
Its something very much possible. We follow standards.
Rajiv Sharma
>If I have a very detailed Product Requirements Doc and Functional Spec is that something that could be handed off and could be executed in India?
>
>- Travis Private Reply to Rajiv Sharma | | May 13, 2005 11:43 pm | | IT wage rates in India vs. China | # |
Lawrence Sinclair | | My understanding is that wage rates in India, in the IT industry, are currently lower than in China.
In 2001, I paid the manager of my small operation about $500 per month. He was the most highly paid person. He was in his forties, a programmer, and had an MBA. He is currently working in the US earning an excellent salary as a programmer.
My best programmers, were paid $200-$300 per month.
At that time, I had a low attrition rate, so rates were probably reasonably competitive. Although I certainly don't think these people were being overpaid. They could have been very loyal. It was certainly a great team of talented and dedicated people.
I understand that wages have been growing in the realm of 15% per year. This would put, conservatively, those rates in the area of $875 for the manager and $350-$525 for the programmers.
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> agree, only evaluating pay level. find it kinda expensive. we are prob 10 yrs late :)
>>
>
>How does these rates compare to programmers in China of same experience level?
>
>What can we expect to pay? A few years ago, a former co-worker of mine was paying (if I remember correctly) some pretty darn good programmers around $500 a month and that was considered a good salary.
>
>But I remember there was more a communication situation due to weaker English skills in China (at least at that time and with the people he had).Private Reply to Lawrence Sinclair | | May 13, 2005 11:54 pm | | re: re: The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Rajiv Sharma wrote:
> Hello Travis
>
>If you do have a solid Product Requirements Doc and Functional Specs then I myself can surely deliver a clean bug free working prototype.
>
>The important factor is communication and review meetings that need to go on. There must be defined time frames and testing guidelines for you and us to follow.
>
>Its something very much possible. We follow standards.
>
Hi Rajiv,
Having been in product mgmt for years and working with engineers, I understand their hesitancy on working for sweat equity. They are basically at the mercy of the product mgmt to have spec'd out the proper product, researched market, etc. and for sales force (or product mgr, then putting on sales hat and selling).
So for the mgmt team or founding team, they really need to not only think out the product, marketspace, biz model, etc. but communicate it and sell to engineers.
This is much diff. from funded companies that have money to pay market rate salaries, buy various equipment and have the cushion to make some wrong turns or succeed by running out of ways to fail because they have a bank account to fall back on.
- TravisPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 13, 2005 11:56 pm | | re: IT wage rates in India vs. China | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
> My understanding is that wage rates in India, in the IT industry, are currently lower than in China.
>
>In 2001, I paid the manager of my small operation about $500 per month. He was the most highly paid person. He was in his forties, a programmer, and had an MBA. He is currently working in the US earning an excellent salary as a programmer.
>
>My best programmers, were paid $200-$300 per month.
>
>At that time, I had a low attrition rate, so rates were probably reasonably competitive. Although I certainly don't think these people were being overpaid. They could have been very loyal. It was certainly a great team of talented and dedicated people.
>
>I understand that wages have been growing in the realm of 15% per year. This would put, conservatively, those rates in the area of $875 for the manager and $350-$525 for the programmers.
>
Thanks. That sounds about right. An interesting thing at my friend's company and their Chinese (mainland) programmers was that the programmers were very happy with their salary AND very happy to be able to work with American/foreign company as it would give htem a leg up on their cohorts in being able to work for other foreign companies overseas or as in-country manager in the future.
Communication in English was much harder than India as India has much stronger use of English in school and society.
Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 14, 2005 12:03 am | | re: IT wage rates in India vs. China | # | 
>> Barry Caplan - Start Your Future Today | | Why the focus on wages as opposed to value added?
Value added refers to a lot more besides wages and other direct costs.
I think the value add case may go eitehr way, bit on a case by case basis with a very deep analysis.
Are engineers such a commodity that just taking the cheapest ones (or near cheapest, since India rates are closer to China then to US/Western Europe whether higher or lower) is the best way to go?
Best,
Barry
> Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
> My understanding is that wage rates in India, in the IT industry, are currently lower than in China.
Private Reply to >> Barry Caplan - Start Your Future Today | | May 14, 2005 12:08 am | | re: re: re: The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
>> Barry Caplan - Start Your Future Today | | Travis -
That is why VCs always ask "who is on the *team*?". There are many roles on the team, and engineers are one of them. A team is more then the sum of its parts, and everybody needs to trust and work well with everyone else to function as a team.
You are right that engineers rely on PM, but PM relies on engineers too. Everyone relies on everyone.
When the team worhks, it is a beautiful, unstoppable thing in my experience, whether the team is getting paid in cash or equity or combinations thereof.
Best,
Barry
>Hi Rajiv,
>
>Having been in product mgmt for years and working with engineers, I understand their hesitancy on working for sweat equity. They are basically at the mercy of the product mgmt to have spec'd out the proper product, researched market, etc. and for sales force (or product mgr, then putting on sales hat and selling).
>
>So for the mgmt team or founding team, they really need to not only think out the product, marketspace, biz model, etc. but communicate it and sell to engineers.
>
>This is much diff. from funded companies that have money to pay market rate salaries, buy various equipment and have the cushion to make some wrong turns or succeed by running out of ways to fail because they have a bank account to fall back on.
>
>- TravisPrivate Reply to >> Barry Caplan - Start Your Future Today | | May 14, 2005 9:25 am | | re: re: re: re: does anyone want to form a startup in india!? | # |
s. pokta | | this is kinda embarassing, i m 40min away from the border but i m not exactly updated on IT labour cost there. (my current biz isnt IT) I think US $500 /mth is possible in beijing and some some mid-size (cost) cities. more expensive in ShangHai and ShenZhen (my guess 700-1000). probably $300 in cities like XiAn.
Experience is a little hard to assess sometimes. I usually start by comparing fresh grad from Uni. For US 10K a year, i am sure you can get top student (fresh grad again) from any top university in China. at that rate, u can expect someone with decent english fundamentals.
if you are setting up in south china (like GuangZhou or ShenZhen) many companies hire a project manager from HK and make him lead/coordinate a team in china. dont be surprise ppl in hk are not tht fluent in english (much more manageable compare to china though).
when i post my interest in China, i was hoping to know more from other ppl about china. if u guys are interested, i'll post when i find out more.
i think communication prob can be overcome if u dont go too far outta major cities. i see lots of westerners in china now. also, unlike other fields (with hardware burden), i m not worried about politicial issues and stuff. if you are in IT and esp in development stage, you can easily pack your company in a harddisk and carrry it to another country.
... my 2 yuan.
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> agree, only evaluating pay level. find it kinda expensive. we are prob 10 yrs late :)
>>
>
>How does these rates compare to programmers in China of same experience level?
>
>What can we expect to pay? A few years ago, a former co-worker of mine was paying (if I remember correctly) some pretty darn good programmers around $500 a month and that was considered a good salary.
>
>But I remember there was more a communication situation due to weaker English skills in China (at least at that time and with the people he had). Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 14, 2005 6:09 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: does anyone want to form a startup in india!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> this is kinda embarassing, i m 40min away from the border but i m not exactly updated on IT labour cost there. (my current biz isnt IT) I think US $500 /mth is possible in beijing and some some mid-size (cost) cities. more expensive in ShangHai and ShenZhen (my guess 700-1000). probably $300 in cities like XiAn.
>
My friends dev center was in Beijing - I was surprised $500 a month got such quality people - this was around 2001 - 2003. In the end his company went bankrupt after blowing through close to $75 million. The never got to receive their last $25 million installment.
Again, great idea, but do you really need 150 employees (90 of which are engineers) and locations in San Jose, Tokyo, Beijing, Germany, Korea and Switzerland before you have a truly saleable product?
>Experience is a little hard to assess sometimes. I usually start by comparing fresh grad from Uni. For US 10K a year, i am sure you can get top student (fresh grad again) from any top university in China. at that rate, u can expect someone with decent english fundamentals.
>
Can you please list some of the top Chinese Uni's?
Also, how is mainland Chinese or "domestic" Chinese attitude towards stock options? The HKers and Taiwanese I know all love them but maybe because they were acculturated in US? I think HK has a very saavy entrepreneurial population and attitude and people there "get" business.
>if you are setting up in south china (like GuangZhou or ShenZhen) many companies hire a project manager from HK and make him lead/coordinate a team in china. dont be surprise ppl in hk are not tht fluent in english (much more manageable compare to china though).
>
Interesting.
>when i post my interest in China, i was hoping to know more from other ppl about china. if u guys are interested, i'll post when i find out more.
>
>i think communication prob can be overcome if u dont go too far outta major cities. i see lots of westerners in china now. also, unlike other fields (with hardware burden), i m not worried about politicial issues and stuff. if you are in IT and esp in development stage, you can easily pack your company in a harddisk and carrry it to another country.
>
All problems are surmountable it just depends on how much you want to invest in planning and of course doing due diligence, etc.
Some months back we all say the horror story where a US startup just threw a development project over to India and didn't check up for like 6 months and then almost a year later flew over and found the entire dev staff was working on a competitors product - in other words, the mgmt team has to be smart, pro-active, communicative, set expectations and have an arsenal of countermeasures in stock to address principal threats and risks.
But in my experience, most people are doing that or talking about it - based on what I see in newspaper quoting VCs, top Silicon Valley execs, etc. - they just see cost savings and say, "Hey they speak English, they are Americans" and they just throw a project over the wall and wait for the results to come back over the same wall.Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 15, 2005 1:55 am | | re: re: re: re: The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
Abhinav Goyal | |
>Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights.
You are most welcome. I hope it has helped.
>I see. This is similar to Japan. In Japan, the organization you are with often carries more prestige than the position you hold or work that you do.
>
>For instance, a Marketing secretary (or even the Janitor) at a prestigious company like Sumitomo could have higher prestige than a Marketing Manager at a much smaller or unknown company.
>
Yes, I find this rather ironic since I thought the oriental religions (including Indian, Chinese and Japanese cultures) stress more than work and function (verbs) rather than personalities (nouns). Like you mentioned in your previous posts, sociological-economic-political (what I call the SEP triangle) factors influence work more than they are given credit for.
>
>If I have a very detailed Product Requirements Doc and Functional Spec is that something that could be handed off and could be executed in India?
>
I think it would be good to put a bit of the roadmap in the PRD so that the technical solution is scaleable and additional functionality can be built without having to re-engineer. That is the biggest problem with (most) people who work in the IT services companies - they never see the lifecycle through 2/3 major releases and hence design for the immediate requirements. This is great for services companies - having to re-engineer brings them more moolah ;)
To answer your question - Yes, it can be done but I would advise track/monitor it constinuously. I think it is critical that the person heading the initiative in India meet the following criteria
1. strong technical skills
2. experience in product environments
3. is aligned with the vision and ensures that "focus" doesn't necessarily imply "short-sightedness" and hardcoding.Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | May 15, 2005 5:13 am | | re: IT wage rates in India vs. China | # |
s. pokta | | hmm... i think your figures sound more like it. (still dont find it cheap :) i think china is the same but disadvantaged by language skill.
> Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
> My understanding is that wage rates in India, in the IT industry, are currently lower than in China.
>
>In 2001, I paid the manager of my small operation about $500 per month. He was the most highly paid person. He was in his forties, a programmer, and had an MBA. He is currently working in the US earning an excellent salary as a programmer.
>
>My best programmers, were paid $200-$300 per month.
>
>At that time, I had a low attrition rate, so rates were probably reasonably competitive. Although I certainly don't think these people were being overpaid. They could have been very loyal. It was certainly a great team of talented and dedicated people.
>
>I understand that wages have been growing in the realm of 15% per year. This would put, conservatively, those rates in the area of $875 for the manager and $350-$525 for the programmers.
>
>> Travis wrote:
>> > s. pokta wrote:
>>> agree, only evaluating pay level. find it kinda expensive. we are prob 10 yrs late :)
>>>
>>
>>How does these rates compare to programmers in China of same experience level?
>>
>>What can we expect to pay? A few years ago, a former co-worker of mine was paying (if I remember correctly) some pretty darn good programmers around $500 a month and that was considered a good salary.
>>
>>But I remember there was more a communication situation due to weaker English skills in China (at least at that time and with the people he had). Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 15, 2005 5:18 am | | re: re: IT wage rates in India vs. China | # |
s. pokta | | Yes, EXACTLY. when i was running a factory (appliance) in china, some fresh grad (due to lack of exp) were willing to work for a foreign company BELOW mkt rate for that reason!!!
> Travis wrote:
> > Lawrence Sinclair wrote:
>> My understanding is that wage rates in India, in the IT industry, are currently lower than in China.
>>
>>In 2001, I paid the manager of my small operation about $500 per month. He was the most highly paid person. He was in his forties, a programmer, and had an MBA. He is currently working in the US earning an excellent salary as a programmer.
>>
>>My best programmers, were paid $200-$300 per month.
>>
>>At that time, I had a low attrition rate, so rates were probably reasonably competitive. Although I certainly don't think these people were being overpaid. They could have been very loyal. It was certainly a great team of talented and dedicated people.
>>
>>I understand that wages have been growing in the realm of 15% per year. This would put, conservatively, those rates in the area of $875 for the manager and $350-$525 for the programmers.
>>
>
>Thanks. That sounds about right. An interesting thing at my friend's company and their Chinese (mainland) programmers was that the programmers were very happy with their salary AND very happy to be able to work with American/foreign company as it would give htem a leg up on their cohorts in being able to work for other foreign companies overseas or as in-country manager in the future.
>
>Communication in English was much harder than India as India has much stronger use of English in school and society.
>
> Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 15, 2005 8:05 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: does anyone want to form a startup in india!? | # |
s. pokta | |
New Page 1
> s. pokta wrote:
> this is kinda embarassing, i m 40min away from the border but i m not exactly
updated on IT labour cost there. (my current biz isnt IT) I think US $500 /mth
is possible in beijing and some some mid-size (cost) cities. more expensive in
ShangHai and ShenZhen (my guess 700-1000). probably $300 in cities like XiAn.
>
My friends dev center was in Beijing - I was
surprised $500 a month got such quality people - this was around 2001 - 2003. In
the end his company went bankrupt after blowing through close to $75 million.
The never got to receive their last $25 million installment.
Again, great idea, but do you really need 150 employees (90 of which are
engineers) and locations in San Jose, Tokyo, Beijing, Germany, Korea and
Switzerland before you have a truly saleable product?
i think that rate was about right (2001-2003). it
should be at most $600 now. i went to BeiJing last yr and went to ShangHai and
GuangZhou in May. ShangHai is most expensive. prob less desireable for IT.
BeiJing has had a famous "IT park" for a while..
there is an additional consideration, greenspan (US gov)
has been pressing china to float (or appreciate ) RMB. it looks like the yuan
will hv to go up in the near future. that will increase cost for outsourcing to
china.
>Experience is a little hard to assess sometimes. I usually start by comparing
fresh grad from Uni. For US 10K a year, i am sure you can get top student (fresh
grad again) from any top university in China. at that rate, u can expect someone
with decent english fundamentals.
>
Can you please list some of the top Chinese Uni's?
Also, how is mainland Chinese or "domestic" Chinese attitude towards stock
options? The HKers and Taiwanese I know all love them but maybe because they
were acculturated in US? I think HK has a very saavy entrepreneurial population
and attitude and people there "get" business.
The top 2 Us in China are BeiJing U (Harvard equi) and
QingHua U(like MIT) -- both are in BeiJing, and they are opp to each other
too. US grad schools are fighting for students from there. There is an IT park
near to the Us, the name is "Zhong Guan Cun"
(Cun = village)
www.zhongguancun.com.cn
this
place has become pretty famous. i heard beijing is only liveable in may and oct,
it has arizona summer but minnesota winter. :) 2 trips a year doesnt sound
excessive :)
I heard there are a few other pretty famous colleges in
BeiJing, sorry i dunno their names. Fudan U and JiaoTong U in ShangHai are very
famous (they are prob like UCB or Rice) too. A few more in places i dunno.
XiaMen U (Fujian province) is prob ok and ZhongShan U in GuangZhou (Canton
province) should be pretty good ( like UCLA or something). For IT, Zhong
Guan Cun is very famous now but there is another cluster in GuangZhou which i am
more interested. cuz i m only 3 hours away by land.
sorry, i cant provide more, i know US colleges better.
:))
nope, HKers don like stock options (it was desirable
for only a short time during the dot com boom). works much better for tech
companies in Taiwan. mainland Chinese like cash :) or something to improve their
career prospect like exp in a foreign company (as you hv mentioned). yes, HKers
are very entrepreneurialimistic. :))))). and calculative, stock options arent
doing well in the stk mkt recently. actually, stk options still work well for
the minority high level management, not for mid-low level sweaters.
>if you are setting up in south china (like GuangZhou or ShenZhen) many
companies hire a project manager from HK and make him lead/coordinate a team in
china. dont be surprise ppl in hk are not tht fluent in english (much more
manageable compare to china though).
>
Interesting.
>when i post my interest in China, i was hoping to know more from other ppl
about china. if u guys are interested, i'll post when i find out more.
>
>i think communication prob can be overcome if u dont go too far outta major
cities. i see lots of westerners in china now. also, unlike other fields (with
hardware burden), i m not worried about politicial issues and stuff. if you are
in IT and esp in development stage, you can easily pack your company in a
harddisk and carrry it to another country.
>
All problems are surmountable it just depends on
how much you want to invest in planning and of course doing due diligence, etc.
Some months back we all say the horror story where a US startup just threw a
development project over to India and didn't check up for like 6 months and then
almost a year later flew over and found the entire dev staff was working on a
competitors product - in other words, the mgmt team has to be smart, pro-active,
communicative, set expectations and have an arsenal of countermeasures in stock
to address principal threats and risks.
YES, i recall reading tht too. personally i m not too
thrilled about going to (setting up operation) India until i need a scale of 200
ppl. and the need of good english is essential. for programmers, i don think
english is the most important thing. Many of my classmates from ucsd who were
very strong in programming skill had really bad english. Sometimes they called
me and said "sorry man, call u late, becall i wing the wong number just now"
i heard a few wings and wongs are in the valley now :))) ... i am sure you know
better.
But in my experience, most people are doing that or
talking about it - based on what I see in newspaper quoting VCs, top Silicon
Valley execs, etc. - they just see cost savings and say, "Hey they speak
English, they are Americans" and they just throw a project over the wall and
wait for the results to come back over the same wall.
well, like you said before, many ppl (including the
VCs) are chasing hype or following trends blindly. depending on the job, some
are more suitable but not all. Call centers with a scale of 100 or more is very
suitable for india (also philippine), i think. very stupid to do that in China.
As for IT, i think there might b a little too much hype for india. China is not
too bad, slightly shorter in flight time compare to india for californian
companies. btw, i don think they teach students to hate US in
school. as a matter of fact, they admire US. sometimes there is some pride thing
and bitterness in political issues, i usually ignore tht.
Private Reply to s. pokta | | May 15, 2005 8:48 am | | re: re: re: re: re: The Sweat Equity Model vs. the Indian Offshore Model | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Abhinav Goyal wrote:
>>>I see. This is similar to Japan. In Japan, the organization you are with often carries more prestige than the position you hold or work that you do.
For instance, a Marketing secretary (or even the Janitor) at a prestigious company like Sumitomo could have higher prestige than a Marketing Manager at a much smaller or unknown company.
>>>
>
>Yes, I find this rather ironic since I thought the oriental religions (including Indian, Chinese and Japanese cultures) stress more than work and function (verbs) rather than personalities (nouns). Like you mentioned in your previous posts, sociological-economic-political (what I call the SEP triangle) factors influence work more than they are given credit for.
>
It's very interesting. For instance, if you ask most Americans what they do for a living they'll tell you their function -- "I'm in Sales" or their title "I'm a Sales Manager" and then later they'll tell you their company.
Other cultures may say, "I work for....xyz....company".
and THEN they will tell you what their function is.Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 15, 2005 9:04 am | | re: re: IT wage rates in India vs. China | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > s. pokta wrote:
> hmm... i think your figures sound more like it. (still dont find it cheap :) i think china is the same but disadvantaged by language skill.
>
>
What's amazing is that the US biz man is so burdened by taxes and regulations in US, that one employees payroll tax contribution (fica alone at 7.5%) would pay for a programmer in China and that's just at a base of $90,000. Add in medicare, workers comp (a huge one in California) and health care and you're adding about 30% to the base so for each worker we hire in California at $90,000, we are probably burdened with another 30% or $30,000 in expenditures - that would then be able to hire - $30,000/12 = $2,500 per month.
$2,500 / month @ $500 per engineer = 5 engineers.
That's just from payroll taxes and health care. Now get rid of the US engineer for $90k per year and you could hire another 5 engineers @ $1,000 / month, and a manager at $1,000 for a total of 10 enginners and 1 manager with $18,000 left over for office space, computers and you air travel back and forth from china -- and that's from JUST ONE US engineer at a measly $90k - what about the guys making $100K, $105K, $120k, etc.Private Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | May 16, 2005 5:02 am | | re: re: re: IT wage rates in India vs. China | # |
s. pokta | | yes sir, and you are wondering if u need to offer stock options???? :))) cheers.
> Travis wrote:
> > s. pokta wrote:
>> hmm... i think your figures sound more like it. (still dont find it cheap :) i think china is the same but disadvantaged by language skill.
>
>>
>>
>
>What's amazing is that the US biz man is so burdened by taxes and regulations in US, that one employees payroll tax contribution (fica alone at 7.5%) would pay for a programmer in China and that's just at a base of $90,000. Add in medicare, workers comp (a huge one in California) and health care and you're adding about 30% to the base so for each worker we hire in California at $90,000, we are probably burdened with another 30% or $30,000 in expenditures - that would then be able to hire - $30,000/12 = $2,500 per month.
>
>$2,500 / month @ $500 per engineer = 5 engineers.
>
>That's just from payroll taxes and health care. Now get rid of the US engineer for $90k per year and you could hire another 5 engineers @ $1,000 / month, and a manager at $1,000 for a total of 10 enginners and 1 manager with $18,000 left over for office space, computers and you air travel back and forth from china -- and that's from JUST ONE US engineer at a measly $90k - what about the guys making $100K, $105K, $120k, etc. Private Reply to s. pokta | | Jun 08, 2005 7:02 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: does anyone want to form a startup in india!? | # | 
Lalit Saraswat | | not checking the progress of any project (outsourced, or done by employees) for 6 months is strange... i am surprised that the company outsourcing did not check project status reports for six months. most would insist on daily / weekly reporting.
if you do your pre-project due diligence checks, there is no reason to be a part of a horror story
please also see http://www.wipro.com/lounge/lounge.htm
>All problems are surmountable it just depends on
>how much you want to invest in planning and of course doing due diligence, etc.
>Some months back we all say the horror story where a US startup just threw a
>development project over to India and didn't check up for like 6 months and then
>almost a year later flew over and found the entire dev staff was working on a
>competitors product - in other words, the mgmt team has to be smart, pro-active,
>communicative, set expectations and have an arsenal of countermeasures in stock
>to address principal threats and risks.
Private Reply to Lalit Saraswat | | Jun 08, 2005 10:25 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: does anyone want to form a startup in india!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Lalit Saraswat wrote:
> not checking the progress of any project (outsourced, or done by employees) for 6 months is strange... i am surprised that the company outsourcing did not check project status reports for six months. most would insist on daily / weekly reporting.
>
Hi Lalit,
I would go even further and say not checking any project for 6 months is not only strange but downright stupid if not suicidal - it has less to do with India and more to do with stupid management and even stupider VCs (in my opinion). Here is the actual post I made regarding this
company, called Ishoni Networks, back 01/09/04:
http://www.ryze.com/postdisplay.php?messageid=187892&confid=109
A Daring Tale of Silly-Con VCs, "Good Management Team required" and Ishoni Networks
Consider that Ishoni Networks is/was a developer of a chip that combines voice, data and security processors.
Consider that Ishoni Networks raised over $68 million through three rounds of financing.
Consider that Ishoni Networks was funded by VCs such as meVC Draper Fisher Jurvetson Fund I, Brad Peery Capital, Credit Suisse First Boston, Deutsche Banc Alex Brown, PacRim Venture Partners, SinoStar Capital, Bessemer Venture Partners, Information Technology Ventures, INVESCO Private Capital, Lucent Venture Partners and Philips.
Consider that Ishoni Networks Management team was considered very strong by John M. Grillos, chairman, chief executive officer and managing member of the meVC Draper Fisher Jurvetson Fund I who stated, "We believe that Ishoni Networks' strong management team, coupled with key strategic partners and the increasing demand for a more advanced broadband platform, will allow Ishoni to remain a leader in this high-growth market."
Consider that Ishoni Networks was a forward looking company who thought it was a good idea to move all key IP development over to an offshore center in India to save money.
Consider that Ishoni Networks management realized that suddenly the phone calls to the Indian development office weren't being returned early last year but still didn't press the issue until May of that year.
Consider that finally Ishoni Networks' COO, Amin Varis, flew to India unannounced to investigate why no one in the India office would return his calls.
Now consider what Mr. Varis discovered.
Well, hot damn, if he didn't find that the whole office didn't just up and rip off every piece of Ishoni IP, suck the company dry and then jump on over to rival firm, Ample Wave Communications, apparently in a scam to scoop up Ishoni's intellectual assets and then bankrupt it.
If Inktomi means "spider" in a Native American language, I have to believe that Ishoni means "sucker" in Sanskrit.
Way to go Silly-Con Valley VCs - yep, you picked a damn good team who sure knew how to execute, and the company was a sure success because it combined all the key ingredients need - Overfunded, led-by top tier VCs with attracted all the lemming VCs, Offshore development and a product that had it all - VoIP, SOC, Java, etc. Throw in P2P, Social Networking and a Patridge-in-a-Pear-Tree and I'm sure even I would have been enticed to invest.
And in return this "team" did a damn good job providing you with a huge, albeit negative, ROI.
Full story here...
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/7659988.htm
TravisPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | Jun 09, 2005 9:02 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # | 
Deepak Shenoy | | Hi Travis,
Not sure if you got the response to this , but here's my 2c:
> Travis wrote:
> In my experience, some of the best and most cost
> effective software programmers are those that did not
> formally study computer science.
I agree - though what I would say is more on the lines of: Education has no relevance to the productivity of a software engineer.
I have the "stamp" of an REC/NIT myself, but since starting a business, I've realized there are tons of very smart people who aren't "engineers". We've honed some such people. Not only are they productive, they also tend to be a lot more humble and "feet-firmly-on-ground" types - which makes it so much easier for them to do so many different things.
>This is the type of programmer I seek out in the US and there is a large pool of these. Does this type of programmer exist in India? If so, how do we reach them?
>
Reaching them is difficult. One way is this: In your area, build a "programming contest" - with a chunky prize. You know what to do next.
The other way is to target user groups and post VERY difficult programming problems - people that solve them might be your target.
I've done quite a bit of searching myself, and there really isn't a silver bullet solution, IMHO.
- DeepakPrivate Reply to Deepak Shenoy | | Jun 09, 2005 8:52 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Deepak Shenoy wrote:
> Hi Travis,
>
>Not sure if you got the response to this , but here's my 2c:
>
>Travis wrote:
>In my experience, some of the best and most cost
>effective software programmers are those that did not
>formally study computer science.
>
>I agree - though what I would say is more on the lines of: Education has no relevance to the productivity of a software engineer.
>
Yes, productivity, creativity and efficacy of an engineer or any person.
>I have the "stamp" of an REC/NIT myself, but since starting a business, I've realized there are tons of very smart people who aren't "engineers". We've honed some such people. Not only are they productive, they also tend to be a lot more humble and "feet-firmly-on-ground" types - which makes it so much easier for them to do so many different things.
>
Engineers/programmers with formal educations still provide value and a mix may be very effective, but often times for the two man or three man company the self-taught computer genius is the one that can take you from idea to proof of concept or even first released product.
In the past, I worked with a guy once who was like this - he took a project that would have taken probably 6 guys 8 months to do and built it out in 4 months by himself.
And I saw another guy rewrite an entire app that was written by 15 people over a year in 60 days. Now granted, rewrites are easier because you can look at other people's code, you already have test cases, specs, etc. but you get my point.
The downside of these two self taught genius programmers is that they were wild, unpredictable people. It's the difference of having a military of trained professionals of the officer and gentleman type versus Claire Chenault’s Flying Tigers who fought like, well, Tigers, in China against the Japanese in WWII.
Each has its own advantages and disadvantages but each can be managed as well - trick is recruiter and managing each properly.
>This is the type of programmer I seek out in the US and there is a large pool of these. Does this type of programmer exist in India? If so, how do we reach them?
>
>
>Reaching them is difficult. One way is this: In your area, build a "programming contest" - with a chunky prize. You know what to do next.
>
That's a darn good idea. So what are prizes? New Laptops, a trip somewhere, a trip to the brothel :) ??
>The other way is to target user groups and post VERY difficult programming problems - people that solve them might be your target.
>
This is another great idea. Actually I look at these and I remembered that Google does some similar things but I think those tactics are equally applicable to smaller companies and startups.
>I've done quite a bit of searching myself, and there really isn't a silver bullet solution, IMHO.
>
>- DeepakPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | Jun 10, 2005 4:27 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Abhinav Goyal | | >>Travis wrote:
>>In my experience, some of the best and most cost
>>effective software programmers are those that did not
>>formally study computer science.
>>
>>I agree - though what I would say is more on the lines of: Education has no relevance to the productivity of a software engineer.
>>
>
>Yes, productivity, creativity and efficacy of an engineer or any person.
I think we need to distinguish between "taking a degree-earning course" and "education". No one gets by without education, whether learnt on the street or in classrooms.
>
>>I have the "stamp" of an REC/NIT myself, but since >starting a business, I've realized there are tons of very >smart people who aren't "engineers". We've honed some such >people. Not only are they productive, they also tend to be >a lot more humble and "feet-firmly-on-ground" types - which >makes it so much easier for them to do so many different >things.
>>
>
Yes, I agree though I suspect I already knew this when I was in college. When I looked around, I knew that most of the people there (inspite of the fact that they will have an REC stamp on their name) will be completely useless engineers/programmers/solution designers because they lacked one essential quality - the ability to abstract something out and learn at the meta-level. I have found that Sociology teachers make better programmers than most of my classmates.Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | Jun 10, 2005 7:31 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Deepak Shenoy | |
>Engineers/programmers with formal educations
> still provide value and a mix may be very effective,
> but often times for the two man or three man company
> the self-taught computer genius is the one that can
> take you from idea to proof of concept or even first
> released product.
Yes, if you can manage him/her well. It's sometimes a little difficult to keep them focussed towards the goal - they tend to wander towards tangents that are useless for business (but great technically). Or they'll stay at the 90% level of completion...forever.
Good management can change that...but it's a problem one has to be aware of, and incorrect handling can cause severe demotivation.
>The downside of these two self taught genius
> programmers is that they were wild, unpredictable
> people. It's the difference of having a military of
> trained professionals of the officer and gentleman type
> versus Claire Chenault’s Flying Tigers who fought like,
> well, Tigers, in China against the Japanese in WWII.
Interesting analogy :) I sometimes call them "cowboy" programmers. What I usually tend to avoid is "hero" programmers - folks that will want to sit in a closed room, hammer out code until THEY think it's complete, and hand it over. Great for a one-off desperate requirement, but terrible for managing a growing project.
>> Reaching them is difficult. One way is this: In your
>> area, build a "programming contest" - with a chunky
>> prize. You know what to do next.
>
>That's a darn good idea. So what are prizes? New Laptops,
> a trip somewhere
Yep, these are ideas. Hard cash is another. In India there are tons of things that aren't available off the shelf - the XBox for instance, and so many gadgets you take for granted in Frys. Getting some of these and pushing them as prizes is inexpensive and will attract the best.
I'll be co-ordinating a contest soon, let me know if you want to see the results. I'll probably blog about it sometime...
> , a trip to the brothel :) ??
What would a software programmer do there? (g,d,r)
>>The other way is to target user groups and post VERY
>> difficult programming problems - people that solve them
>> might be your target.
>
>This is another great idea. Actually I look at these and I remembered that Google does some similar things but I think those tactics are equally applicable to smaller companies and startups.
>
It's cheaper than paying recruiters who only flood you with resumes. :)
Plus it's also builds an image, great for further recruitment...
- DeepakPrivate Reply to Deepak Shenoy | | Jun 10, 2005 8:00 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Abhinav Goyal | | Section 1
>>> Reaching them is difficult. One way is this: In your
>>> area, build a "programming contest" - with a chunky
>>> prize. You know what to do next.
>>
>>That's a darn good idea. So what are prizes? New Laptops,
>> a trip somewhere
>
>Yep, these are ideas. Hard cash is another. In India there >are tons of things that aren't available off the shelf - >the XBox for instance, and so many gadgets you take for >granted in Frys. Getting some of these and pushing them as >prizes is inexpensive and will attract the best.
Section 2
>
>I'll be co-ordinating a contest soon, let me know if you want to see the results. I'll probably blog about it sometime...
>
>> , a trip to the brothel :) ??
>
>What would a software programmer do there? (g,d,r)
Putting Section 1 and Section 2 together, I suppose a software programmer could write a game for the XBox he would have otherwise won!
Just kidding Deepak (and apologies as this is totally irrelevant as far as the discussion at hand goes) but you make it sound as if software programmers dont have any idea of what a libido is. Are you referring to those with or those without a formal education? :)Private Reply to Abhinav Goyal | | Jun 10, 2005 8:02 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Travis Hughes Interactive | | > Deepak Shenoy wrote:
>
>Yep, these are ideas. Hard cash is another. In India there are tons of things that aren't available off the shelf - the XBox for instance, and so many gadgets you take for granted in Frys. Getting some of these and pushing them as prizes is inexpensive and will attract the best.
>
>I'll be co-ordinating a contest soon, let me know if you want to see the results. I'll probably blog about it sometime...
>
Please share the process and results of this.
>>a trip to the brothel :) ??
>
>What would a software programmer do there? (g,d,r)
Well, I was thinking they have free tea and soda at these places. ;)
>It's cheaper than paying recruiters who only flood you with resumes. :)
>
>Plus it's also builds an image, great for further recruitment...
>
I agree. It makes it fun, makes you stand out and adds some spice to the process.
- THPrivate Reply to Travis Hughes Interactive | | Jun 10, 2005 8:16 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Does anyone want to form a startup in India!? | # |
Deepak Shenoy | | Hi Abhinav,
>Putting Section 1 and Section 2 together, I suppose a software programmer could write a game for the XBox he would have otherwise won!
>
Heh :) Why not! Actually what you're saying is more likely in another area: PocketPC and Symbian devices. I know people who had written software for such devices and tested them using emulators - but haven't seen the device!
>Just kidding Deepak (and apologies as this is totally irrelevant as far as the discussion at hand goes) but you make it sound as if software programmers dont have any idea of what a libido is. Are you referring to those with or those without a formal education? :)
>>
Hey I was just kidding too :) (Though I know a number of programmers who just refuse to attempt to have a life :)
I don't think there's ever a libido problem with programmers - someone I know has even filled his phone's memory card with MPEGs of a certain variety!
- DeepakPrivate Reply to Deepak Shenoy | | |
| |
| |
