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| The Truth Seekers Network is not currently active and cannot accept new posts | Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | Views: 2085 | Aug 31, 2006 11:01 pm | | Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | John Stephen Veitch | | I've just made a post to my "Open Future" blog. http://johnsveitch.blogspot.com/
I've always hoped that Rick/Jack was capable of learning, and that over time (three years now) he would come to understand that his staunch support of everything Republican has a downside. I still believe in the value of conversation, and the ability of human beings to learn by talking to each other.
The recent discussion "Leaky Moderates" is a good example on TS where people who have a will to discover the truth can find it, and those who insist on wearing horse blinkers, can pretend to be blind.
The key to my blog post is here:
"There is confusion about how people learn and why people think, and even about what stops them from thinking. How do we create an open future for ourselves? I believe that people learn best in groups. Other people inspire one to think and respond wherever there is a climate that encourages conversations. In a conversation there is no textbook answer, there is no way to determine the direction the discussion will take, or to say when the end has been reached. The process of conversation in a social context can be strongly engaging and highly educational. Conversations occur at the level of interest and with the current knowledge of the participants. Each of us will choose which conversations we wish to join. We will only remain in a conversation if it continues to hold interest for us, we are free to leave.
Here is the advantage of lists, forums and even more strongly online social networks. People self select by opting into the group. They self select again by choosing to stay or not. They self select once more when they choose to engage in the discussion.
Each of these self selecting decisions help to define for the individual the "who am I question" and in the process of engagement, in conversation with others both what one knows, and what one considers important will change. Over time the activity of conversing with others changes who you are, who your trusted friends are, and where you might seek advice and help in your work or in your life."
So I'm interested in your own views, not about other people, but about yourself. How has being on Ryze changed you?
Does whatever your experience has been, help to give you an "Open Future", increased REAL knowledge, more trusted contacts, a better appreciation of what the important issues are? Does this experience make you better prepared to be effective in the world, in your life and your business?
Is the "information Society" real, or a dream? Thoughts?
Regards
John S Veitch Adapt to Experience - http://www.ate.co.nz/ Innovation Network - http://veech-network.ryze.com/Private Reply to John Stephen Veitch | Aug 31, 2006 11:53 pm | | re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Dianne Reum | | Hi John.
Very interesting post. I've, too, wondered if people with preconceived notions can change.
I don't think it's easy, but I believe we can. Of course we can.
It doesn't have to take a long time. I've changed my mind about very stubborn beliefs because of single, momentary revelations.
More than once.
Change can happen over years, or in a flash. It takes what it takes.
Perhaps changing does require an open mind; the ability to let a little air and light in through a crack in the door.
I've changed my mind most recently about the Clintons, due to conversations generated by forums like this. Information has been revealed I hadn't known. I'm now quite dubious of where their loyalties are and, where once I'd have voted for Hillary, I doubt I would now. (There would have to be some pretty bad alternatives).
Being on Ryze has made it easy for me to find out what the government has been up to. I don't have time to research every concern or question I have. I find a great deal of good research right here.
I have also been heartened to find a group of intelligent, engaging, diverse people who share my concerns.
After hanging around a place for a couple years, I do feel as though, on some level, I know some of these people.
And I like them. :)
Private Reply to Dianne Reum | Sep 01, 2006 3:27 am | | re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | James Booth | | Wha'd I do now ?
I came to TS with 6 decades of "what I thought I knew" but without being convinced how much of it would stand up ...
Two things have surprised me in TS since:
1. How much of what I brought did stand up 2. How, and to what degree, ordinary people will rip into each other at the drop of a hat ... and what for ?
I realized that some of what I "thought I knew" I had only taken someone's word for ...
... and when I thought about who that "someone" was ... well, I knew what I had to do - since I had time, no excuse not to.
I still think politics is totally corrupt, too far gone, and I see no reason not to automate the election process.
Having said that, I am well aware there is fraud in computerized voting; however, if we can rely on computers to collect the right amount of pay each cycle, there is no reason we cannot devise a computerized system for our elections that is verifiable (make sure you keep your receipt) and will guarantee anyone who messes with it a noticeably long absence from his or her "preferred" surroundings - in plain language: jail time.
Automated elections combined with compulsory public service would eliminate election fraud, lobbies and lobbyists (no one to lobby), and a whole lot more horse (nothing against horses) manure that I will not list here.
That one thing IMO would be huge step toward an Open Future for all of us.
As for Ryze in the larger sense, it took a few months for "spillover" from one network to another to allow people to "recognize" me to a degree where I started to receive new contacts beyond the many that I more or less brought with me when I joined Ryze. Some of those friends are using Ryze to good advantage, some drifiting, and others got too busy elsewhere - to be expected.
Today, I am very much enjoying the feedback, the smiles and encouragement ... and thinking my system will likely crash any minute now.
As much as I am poked fun at for my "conspiracy theories" I do honestly work at maintaining a position closer to that of (what I consider) *realist*
It is workings of government and institutions that are *unreal* - not my read of them : )
Regarding "the important issues" I wonder what anyone can do in face of them, other than work to secure our own survival - which still allows us plenty room to be *effective* I think ... and more humble. Though I did not feel less than effective previously, time in TS has confirmed much of what I believed, changed some of what I believed, and softened my need to referee - somewhat.
The "Information Age" is real as it is virtual. It has power to bring us together in an "information Society" - and to divide us since not all will learn to manage the flood of information. Some will master information and profit, free to come and go, or just leave; while others will be "left behind" apart from the Internet, with less choice where they will derive information, consequently receive information of less quality, earn less as a result, and be virtual slaves with no chance of exit. _______
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Sep 01, 2006 3:32 am | | re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | James Booth | | btw John
I added two links to my yahoo! group today:
Adapt to Experience - http://www.ate.co.nz/ Innovation Network - http://veech-network.ryze.com/
Quoted part of your post in my forum too.
My compliments on the work you are doing, Sir !
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Sep 01, 2006 3:51 am | | re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | greg cryns | | . . John,
I am learning stuff but I don't come here to learn.
I come here to have fun.
greg
Private Reply to greg cryns | Sep 01, 2006 6:15 am | | re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Audrey Yoeckel | | Hi John! Great set of questions. Thanks.
First, I should apologise for not being around much. Life suddenly got very busy for me. Life is such an adventure! :P
Anyway, I came to Ryze with all of the love of learning and notions of justice and fair play that I've always had. That will never change, I hope. I have learned a lot about myself from the conversations here. I have developed solid stands on issues I hadn't much considered before. In other words, it has broadened my horizon. I've also learned through interaction with people whose pov differs from mine where I should draw the line, where to agree to disagree and where to walk away from an argument. I've also learned the exact length of my fuse on individual issues. :)
There's much value to be gleaned from this network.
Has it changed me? Not much. I'm still the "I am" I was when I arrived...just clearer.
Hope that covers it. Don't have time for more.
Thanks again.Private Reply to Audrey Yoeckel | Sep 01, 2006 2:15 pm | | re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Jack Ward | | I've found I do everything in life with the twin precepts in mind from Phillip Sydney's suggestion of what poetry is around for "To Teach and Delight."
I get delight out of learning and expanding my noodle. I am in TS's basically to do that. This is why I have little patience or interest in those who just do drive-by snarkings.
If you have something interesting to add to the debate, than talk to us. If you're going to just bitch from the corner of your room, there's plenty of chatrooms. :) JPrivate Reply to Jack Ward | Sep 01, 2006 2:39 pm | | re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Jenny | | Before comeing to TS, my experiences with politics, with world issues, with much of what is discussed here, were often just what I had heard on the radio, few and far between discussions with people I've known most of my life, and what I read in fiction/based on a true story type of books. (I loathed dry, historical texts.) So, basically, aside from a few astute and intelligent people in my life, I had very little information.
I KNEW that I was operating from a completely naive place when I arrived--and the thirst for knowledge was what drove me to participate.
Along the way, I learned so very much--the least of which was what a "flame war" was, what a "troll" was, and how to defend my statements without allowing others to twist, or otherwise belittle those statements--and sometimes me in the process.
Everything has been useful. I don't know that I've changed some of my beliefs as much as I've figured out what they actually are. I've found it funny how I don't "fit" in with any particular 'political' group and how, each political group has determined I belong in their opponent's camp--maybe not overall, but during the discussion of certain issues. Hence the determination that I must be a centrist ;)
But yes, TS has been a truly, truly educational experience for me and without this network, I wouldn't have nearly as much information about the state of my world that I do today.
I too, have made friends here and am always excited to get the chance to interact on a deeper, more meaningful level when the topics urge us to really open up and share our innermost thoughts.
Very cool :) And like Diane, I truly like the people here too ;)
Warmly, Jenny:) Private Reply to Jenny | Sep 01, 2006 8:57 pm | | re: re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | | You all know I just love seeing "TS success stories". It really warms my heart, and helps alleviate my doubt in what I'm doing here.
And I doubt things. Alot. It's a quality that is useful, but sometimes I wish I could just find that section of my brain and block it. :-)
You stick to your end goal, and everything else just falls into place. :-) You know what I'm proud of the most? Those who learn about this place from listening to my podcast first. I think you all know that I keep this place open for anyone in internetland to see. Every now and then I get an email from someone saying they have joined, and I can track them back to the podcast page. It makes me smile. :-)
Anyway, that being said, all I ask is that everyone continue to bring their ideas to the party. As you see from all these posts, we have all learned, and grown, from this experience. Everyone here all ready knows how I've grown from this. I've changed my mind more times than I can remember!
And that never stops- the learning, and the growing. You know, this is good timing. I have just finished editing the last part of my conversation with Jack. It all fits.
Synergy. ;-)
And thank you John, for being here. I know you're not able to post often, but now I have a link to your blog and can always get more of your wonderful thoughts!
Now I just need you on a podcast... ;-) ;-)
As I do ALL of you!!!!!
OK- enough mush! DaniPrivate Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Sep 02, 2006 1:12 am | | re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | John Stephen Veitch | | I remember when I sent my first post to usenet, worrying that my opinion might get flamed. What in fact happened was - nothing. No acknowledgment, no flame, no response at all.
Balla Pillai introduced me to Ryze in 2001, Ryze was new, I couldn't see the point. I didn't join. I did join in 2003. Ryze had been through a big growth spurt, and the networks were buzzing. Generally I found the business focused networks were a waste of time, but the help networks were helpful and the political networks were informative. 500 Citizens was a joy, and Sans Fronteirs was a delight. Then we had an unfortunate election in the USA. The mail on the political networks became accusatory, entrenched and repetitive. There was no discussion going on, only flag waving and banner parades. There was little value in that.
Like others, I've found my experience here has forced me to learn more about things I was relatively uninformed about, Cuba and Venezuela for instance, but also the American political and social system. That knowledge has increased my confidence.
Posting my ideas in a public forum and seeing the response from others, and feeling my own strength in defending my position, has taught me a lot about myself. It's helped me define who I am, and what's important to me. Slowly I've found the courage to say in public many things I've privately come to believe, but I'd never heard expressed. To my absolute surprise I often found other people agreeing with me on those points. It's really encouraging to know that your most wild ideas are not perhaps without foundation, and that in the future some of these dreams might become real.
Posting to Ryze and other networks has increased my ability to put together my own ideas, and to have confidence in expressing them in public. I now know that I can stand my ground when I'm right, and I can concede ground easily and freely when I'm wrong. In both cases I'm a winner. I've been re-educated and I've been able to change my mind about lots of things over time. To some extent that has changed what I think, what I deem to be important and to some degree I guess, who I am.
If you are capable of being non-dogmatic, if you can allow yourself not to know, and keep open the ability to doubt and to reconsider, if you can postpone the desire to choose your "truth" before the evidence is in, these discussions offer you a great deal. You can learn, your can change, you can become more powerful as a person.
I've seen great growth in other people online. And I'm disappointed at the failure of others to take up the opportunity. (All the people who never post for instance.) Let me mention a few outstanding examples.
Steven: who I disagree with at root on many issues, has stopped writing 4 page essays quoting the bible at us. His writing is more concise, he communicates, he has learnt to engage in the conversation rather than going off on some personal tangent. Steven always had confidence, but now he's negotiating with people he's in a much better position to make his case. Occasionally (in my view) he sees a reality the rest of us miss.
James: Two years ago I understood that James was trying to tell us something important, but I could never quite put my finger on what it was. James's letters seldom made complete sense to me, although I did appreciate that he was trying to help. Recently, I've noticed not only that he's nailed what he wants to say, but the ability to say it clearly has also grown. A couple of posts to "Leaky Moderates" demonstrate that.
jack22h22: There was once a confident and hungry young caterpillar named Rick who was very active on these forums. He's been a bit quiet of late. I hope he's being a chrysalis and doing a little meditation as he transforms into a butterfly. If that can happen, if the energy and talent Rick/Jack has was directed by more by knowledge and less by dogmatism Ryze will have served the Republican Party well.
Danielle: Remember the couch potatoes, and the TV Trivia, and now Truth Seekers. What a transformation. What's more the depth of her knowledge has grown as she has attempted to bridge the ideas of all the members here, to treat them all with dignity and respect, and yet to maintain control of the network. Any network eventually become a reflection of the ability of the network owner to be that bridge. Danielle has demonstrated great skill, and I'm sure that somewhere in the future that skill will prove invaluable. Danielle may well work as a broadcaster, or a diplomat, or a community developer. She get smy vote for a Nobel Peace Prize.
I hope that give you a flavour for what I see happening here, and why I believe too few people know about this opportunity. SO if you know friends of your's who are not making good use of Ryze, but should be, perhaps they need to see this thread.
Regards John
John S Veitch Adapt to Experience - http://www.ate.co.nz/ Innovation Network - http://veech-network.ryze.com/Private Reply to John Stephen Veitch | Sep 02, 2006 3:15 am | | re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | | It's funny, but Ryze has proven to be the least effective for me in a business environment. That was even before they changed a few things around a year ago.
However, I used to think that it was because it wasn't a good business networking set up. I've since come to realize that it wasn't the network, but it was me.
My calling was elsewhere.
John what you said here:
"Posting my ideas in a public forum and seeing the response from others, and feeling my own strength in defending my position, has taught me a lot about myself. It's helped me define who I am, and what's important to me. Slowly I've found the courage to say in public many things I've privately come to believe, but I'd never heard expressed. To my absolute surprise I often found other people agreeing with me on those points. It's really encouraging to know that your most wild ideas are not perhaps without foundation, and that in the future some of these dreams might become real."
As I said above, my calling was elsewhere. I was always trying to keep my politics separate from my business, even creating my pinkobabe account to only use for politics. But really, you can't keep separate who you really are when it is such a deeply embedded part of you. It becomes strong enough that you can't hide it- and you don't want to any longer. When I changed my main ryze page and incorporated all of who I am, that was probably one of the most freeing things I've ever done. Sort of a "coming out of the closet" experience, I suppose. :-)
More of John's wonderful words:
"Posting to Ryze and other networks has increased my ability to put together my own ideas, and to have confidence in expressing them in public. I now know that I can stand my ground when I'm right, and I can concede ground easily and freely when I'm wrong. In both cases I'm a winner. I've been re-educated and I've been able to change my mind about lots of things over time. To some extent that has changed what I think, what I deem to be important and to some degree I guess, who I am."
I can't tell you how everything you've written hits home for me. Being introduced to the political networks here, I cannot express how liberating that was to me. And yes, I do have to thank 500 citizens for that. It was Christmas of 2003 when I joined Ryze, so the Iraq war was well underway, the mission accomplished while soldiers and civilians still died. Opinions in the network were all ready becoming polarized, but it was in all honesty my first experience with a wide range of people who were willing to think- and also in effect task ME. I couldn't just spout off my opinions, I actually needed to back them up. Imagine my surprise not only when I found I was correct, but also when I was wrong. :-)
But I admit when I'm wrong, and I always, ALWAYS keep asking questions. I try VERY hard to see where other people are coming from, and respect their opinions and their beliefs.
It ain't always so easy... heh.
John, you have a wonderful gift for exposing the positive qualities in individuals. I'm sure we can all learn something from that.
I guess my next question would be, since we've all established that we have broadened or changed our thinking over time, is how have we shared what we have learned? What we are learning?
I think how I have is clear... I've gone beyond Ryze with the podcast. It works in both directions, as I've brought new members to Ryze as well this way. But Ryze eventually became too small for the message I need to get out. :-)
How about everyone else?
DaniPrivate Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Sep 02, 2006 3:36 am | | re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | greg cryns | | . . I've been hanging around chat rooms and bulletin board since the mid 80's.
A fellow down the road from me made a minor killing selling those 5 1/4" computer disks for under $1 when the market was at $2. One of the things he did with his influx of cash was to purchase some software called D-Dial that allowed people to call up a phone number a be connected to a chat room that could handle, ta-da, SEVEN people at one time!
This was a big breakthrough in those days. The fellow had to bring in seven phone lines to his house to make it happen. Man, we had a ball and some of the group that mushroomed to about 25 regulars I know became lovers but it was the contoversy in the chat that kept them coming back. We didn't talk about politics. We talked about everyday life and, well, sex. It was fun to see who had the sharpest wit when it came to sexual innuendo.
Politics is much more interesting to me than sex now. (I wish that was not true - yea, I wish I was 18 again, but, sigh) Most know that I run a very commercial Ryze network and I am pleased to say that my vision of Ryze a decent networking business adventure paid off but not without considerable effort and time on my part.
You can make most anything work for you if you work at it. Even Ryze.
gregPrivate Reply to greg cryns | Sep 02, 2006 4:31 am | | re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | James Booth | | I appreciate and generally respect other people's opinions, and when I can accomplish that I think it is from looking as best I can at what might have gone into forming an opinion presented to me, so that once in a while I find an opinion I take "less seriously" because I do not perceive it as well-formed.
In that way I feel I am less likely to "judge" an opinion (except in the latter case) ... and I do not put much weight on opinions - whether I more likely agree or disagree with one. Instead, I look at details it reveals: a fact I had not known, perspective that puts a different slant on a conclusion - that sort of thing.
John's description of my "progress" is very kind - would be a pleasure to receive from anyone, but akin to what Dani said, coming from John that paragraph has a certain added "oomph" to it - at least in my view it does. Thanks, John.
At this point in time, there is no one on Ryze I have communicated with that I would not, or do not, call friend (even those who are not yet in my Friends list) ... and is that surreal ? Am I doing something wrong ... ? : ) Since I did not have huge expectations when I joined Ryze, my only real disappointment is for those friends I invited, and who joined from my page when I registered, but for whatever reason(s) have not found Ryze useful to them personally. We each have very different paths to follow ...
I have my mother thank for teaching me to read long before I started school, Mr. Bennett for instructing me (the only male in the class) how to type, and both my parents for shaping the strange concoction of character I still try to figure out how best to use in service to others. In the morning I will board an aircraft piloted by my b-i-l and go out to release Mom's ashes.
In most of what I do I am just not going to pressure anyone. I share stories and Ryze columns and pages, and a lot else, with whoever I think will enjoy, or gain something from the presentation, and I try to encourage some of my friends to increase their "visibility" online - at a time when I am considering decreasing my own ... makes not a lot of sense to me, but there it is. We are all going through a lot of changes right now. With some long-time friends I do not speak as easily or quickly as I have apparently learned to do in TS, because I value their friendship more, but neither do I maintain utter silence - having learned somewhat better how far I can go in letting there be a little "slip" now and then. Since I did lose one friend, I have taken that task more seriously. [It was not even anything I said. What set her off was a cartoon I thought was funny.]
So I thank you all for listening (reading) and for your kindness and encouragement. Hoping you will not hesitate to give me a kick when I need it (I know I do, and I promise not to kick back) - and especially to Dani for setting the table and plumping the cushions : )
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Sep 02, 2006 5:53 am | | re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Raymond Wong | | In some ways, sure. It's succeeded in getting me to participate with a wider group in discussion than I otherwise would.
OTOH, I've often found that, while many people are very sure of their perspective on some issue, they're not very able to articulate that perspective. It's a lot easier for them to drop out, or throw a tantrum, or otherwise avoid admitting that others might not see it their way. It becomes the fault of everyone else for failing to understand, than in their own lack of intellectual fortitude.
But I don't really think it's because they really think they're smarter than everyone else. I think it's because on some level, they know they don't understand it well enough themselves, and they're afraid of admitting that. Especially when people feel like they're in a distinct minority, I think it's harder to lower their guard. It's a vicious cycle, of course, because the more you argue a point based on emotion instead of reason, the more people you alienate, until you've isolated yourself completely.
When I'm with my meatspace friends, this doesn't really happen, people can see that we're not all ganging up on them. They're going to be a much smaller group than I can find online, however. When I'm here, I have to remember that sometimes even the most rational people get irrational, and the best thing to do is let them deal with their anger on their own, and come back to it later. Sometimes they're addicted enough to negative attention that they don't let themselves come down, but that represents a pretty limited scenario.
Have I changed my mind based on what I read here? Sure. Not always in the direction that people wanted me to, but my growth as a person and my evolving understanding of the world have definitely been shaped by this place.Private Reply to Raymond Wong | Sep 02, 2006 5:59 am | | re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Ernie Martin | | Actually we are all learners here on earth. Here on TS is meeting of the minds on a microcosm level.:-)). The beauty is one can bring in the "baggage" as a conservative, liberal or moderate on a political level.
I've noticed many here have drawn their "boundaries" and stick or stay within it and question/inquire from that stand or environment.
I do admit, we are all social animals, including those that hardly post or respond.
Those that post here and share their outlook and views have to give them credit.
Cheers, Ernie Martin Network Moderator for Exploring Belief Systems, God & Spirituality http://beliefsystemsgodspirituality-network.ryze.com/Private Reply to Ernie Martin | Sep 02, 2006 9:38 pm | | re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | John Stephen Veitch | | Ernie Martin is a very interesting Ryze member who is further proof of the benefits of Ryze in encouraging personal development. Like Danielle Ernie is developing his third network, and each one is more challenging than the last.
Ernie, was always the man who agreed with everybody, who asked lots short questions, never offensive or pointed questions, the man with no opinion of his own. Ernie worked far to hard at trying to please everyone, I understand that, I used to be like that myself.
Take a look at the new Ernie. This is from the top of his network: Exploring Belief Systems, God and Spirituality.
"This is my third network since joining Ryze. Prior to this network, I started "Life in Transition and Beyond" and "Life after the Corporate World".
I was always and still interested in world religions, god and spirituality. I grew up in India and had a very strong upbringing as a traditional Methodist christian while attending a boarding school in Hyderabad in South India. The boarding school is a Methodist institution. Many students in the school were Muslims (Islamic) and Hindus. So, I have diverse exposure to other religions such as above as well as Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism and some Judaism.
After immigrating to America in mid '60's, I went to many "revolving doors" of churches such as Catholic, Presbytarian, Non-Denominational, Unitarian and Religious Science (Meta-Physical). Currently, me and my better half Denise Michaels (also on Ryze)attend Religious Science church in Vegas, that's right, Vegas.:-)), the sin city!
I encourage you to share and discuss your beliefs and the spirituality as well as inquire and ask others questions for clarification. I may revise this write up in the next few days after getting the network established.
Please be civil and kind towards others and their views.
Also some sense of humor is required. An occasional jokes/humor is a welcome relief. Spirituality and beliefs sometimes sound very serious, but, there is some humor too.
Any topic/subject related to societal beliefs, religions, universe, god, divinity, spirituality are all welcome.
What you'll probably see on this network is lots of variations on religion and spirituality. All colors of the rainbow. It's not all black and white. There is a vast spectrum of shades and hues in between.
The purpose of this network - is not to try to change anyone's point of view or convert anyone. But to look at different points of view and consider them without offense. We can't honestly have a conversation if we're busy being upset. The truth is our spiritual or religious beliefs are very deeply felt - and while we may not share the same point of view - we can still respect each other for our spiritual diversity and the wondrous creations of God that we each are.
Coming together to discuss what can become a volatile topic must be in an atmosphere of mutual respect - even if what another person says chafes up against our own personal beliefs.
Again, welcome and have fun. Let's celebrate life."
I wonder if Ernie is aware of how much growth is demonstrated here?
Regards John
John S Veitch Adapt to Experience - http://www.ate.co.nz/ Innovation Network - http://veech-network.ryze.com/Private Reply to John Stephen Veitch | Sep 03, 2006 5:34 am | | re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | James Booth | | A thought I wanted to add to this thread before I sleep tonight is:
It is great to compose a coherently flowing series of paragraphs to make whatever point, but ...
What does it accomplish ?
... when a collection of seemingly disjointed observations seems to me more indicative of the state we are in.
Without meaningful action to address major challenges, we can talk all day and night and have arrived where we began.
... or maybe I should have posted to the other thread : )
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Sep 03, 2006 6:43 am | | re: re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | John Stephen Veitch | | Not a comment on the wrong thread at all James.
"It is great to compose a coherently flowing series of paragraphs to make whatever point, but ...
What does it accomplish ?"
It is possible for everyone to make progress each at his or her own speed and each in his or her own way by PARTICIPATING in these conversations. We learn when we DO SOMETHING. When I undertake to help someone, and if I need to do some research and if it takes an hour or two, I am the one who benefits first and foremost. I clarify what I think and help to build my own understanding and expertise.
So inside yourself every time you do this YOU BECOME whatever it is you've chosen to become. You choose what you are interested in, what conversations to join, when to participate and when to leave. You decide what is important, so cumulatively you decide what you know and where your ignorance lies.
If the person you respond to, or anybody else, benefits of not is not in your hands. You placed your input into the conversation. What other people make of that is entirely up to them. Mostly as you all probably know, you write your heart out and NOBODY bothers to respond. Such is the way of the world.
There is clear evidence in a remarkably short time, three years, that those who have regularly been active on Ryze have changed in significant ways. I'd say they are more confident about what they know, are better aware about what they don't and feel no need to be an expert about everything. If they have written regular posts, the quality of those posts has improved. You get better at whatever you practice.
You said James, that you continue to be amazed that other people often assume that they know what you think. As you so clearly said, when you write to the conversations on Ryze, that act of writing is often defining for yourself what you think. In my own case, even as I write now, I'm surprised at the clarity of what I'm thinking. I just hope that the words on this page give some idea of that clarity.
We do today what it's possible to do today. A lot or a little. Over 10 years, a tiny span of time in a modern human life, it's possible to make over your entire education online. Ryze is one way to do that, but most of us are also in specialist lists, that cater to our own interests. Several of us have created our own lists, wiki, websites or Ryze networks to cater for our own specialist interests. Who knows where this will lead? None of us. But I am sure that it changes the world in a remarkable way, and what is happening here is far more important than the "war on terror" and more important than Internet marketing, and is largely hidden from public awareness. It's certainly not in the news.
Regards John
John S Veitch Adapt to Experience - http://www.ate.co.nz/ Innovation Network - http://veech-network.ryze.com/Private Reply to John Stephen Veitch | Sep 03, 2006 10:04 am | | re: re: re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | -=Topper=- | |
Safe to say I have enjoyed reading this thread more than participating in it.
Have I learned anything from TS, over time I would have to say yes. Most
recently about education, I learned that my view on it isn't as diverse as
others. Much more to know there.
Another thing I have learned is maybe a fault, labeling. Well I never knew
until I put on my political waders what a neocon was. Got my first taste from
other places and a real taste from a place called Sans Frontiers.
I do from time to time get a change of perspective here at truth seekers, an
"I never looked at it like that before".
I remember chatting with a certain person about changing a couch potato into
a political one. I am glad she did. Took to the reigns in more ways than one.
I liked Johns views here, who in fact doesn't post nearly enough. But is TS
more important than the war on terror? I like the view that yes indeed it is.
For us the active, and not so active members of Truth Seekers.
There has been many a time that Truth Seekers was a pulled plug away, either
elsewhere ( yeck on that, that place turned out to be nowhere ) or pulling the
plug completely. Can you imagine a life without Truth Seekers. Egads it should
be my homepage, but I link to it from the "tap" so life is good. I garner a few
things to bring or just wing right over.
TS is an addiction and Dani the pusher. Good stuff she has here though. I
have rode off into the sunset at least once, sure to return. You get that taste
and you just want more. Besides I like looking into threads and see another view
point pop up.
I used to have a problem this posts from outside sources, but you get to know
the person, and the source becomes just an extension of that viewpoint. But what
usually happens in the following discussion is the viewpoint of the poster then.
It is such a progressive thing now. All in all though either an outside media
piece or one written by the contributor, the idea and meaning are the same.
Besides without that and this forum there are many bloggers and media people
that I would not have heard of, like Greg Palast, to name one.
And
TS it has its own Icon, how cool is that? And a link as well, clever girl. I had
thought of some designs myself but this one really catches it.
Check toppers-tap.com
for details.
Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Sep 03, 2006 6:00 pm | | re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | | heehee... you know Dave, everyone here knows you are under strict requirements... ;-)
I did talk many times about changing the network into a political one. It stemmed from frustration, and also finding out that no one likes to talk about TV as a MAIN network discussion, but they LOVE to talk about it as a side topic. Go figure. We've had more TV discussion since this place became TS than at any point during the short Couch Potato network life.
Yes- there is a logo! Allow me to direct you all to the wonderful person who made it for me, Richard Frohlich:
http://www.texasradiotheatre.com/html/Home.htm
Oh yeah, another audio/radio drama geek. ;-)
It's now the 'official' logo, I've got it up in iTunes in the music store, and use it everywhere else. So if anyone were going to, I dunno... link to the podcast or anything... and wanted a picture...
Also, you did remind me Dave that Ryze has forced me to learn one very important thing- HTML! It wasn't until Ryze that I realized how code actually worked. Sure, most sites/blogs/etc make it REAL easy for you now, but it all started with the number one thing people want to do when they post on ryze.
Post a photo! :-)
Anyway, I was hoping for more response to my question above. How have we shared what we are learning?
DPrivate Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Sep 04, 2006 2:56 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | John Stephen Veitch | | Hello Everyone
I've just read a review of "Whose Freedom? The Battle over America's Most Important Idea" by George Lakoff, written by Prof. Robert Jensen.
Jensen is critical because Lakoff lets his personal version of history and the political system get in the way of exposing the facts. Lakoff apparently has not taken his own advice.
Lakoff writes: "Perhaps the hardest reframing problem is reframing our own minds". ... "Transcending the ideas that we were raised with -- growing to see more -- is the cognitive work of achieving freedom."
On social networks like Ryze there is the opportunity to practice thinking and writing and engaging with other people. This makes it possible to re-educate yourself, to become a modern person, if you choose.
Robert Jensen says: "Being rational - along with being clear and honest - are important if we are to creates the needed shift in fundamental thinking necessary ...... ". He goes on to mention political objectives, but in fact he could add "to make the best of your own life."
You will see in fact that in the TS network and on Ryze generally many people are doing just that.
Regards John
John S Veitch Adapt to Experience - http://www.ate.co.nz/ Innovation Network - http://veech-network.ryze.com/Private Reply to John Stephen Veitch | Sep 04, 2006 2:07 pm | | re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Jean Ackle | | Dani said: "Anyway, I was hoping for more response to my question above. How have we shared what we are learning?"
I'm kind of a slacker (but only 'cause there is room for only 24 hours in a day... and I'm... working on that! You know what... ;) In the meantime...), and because I'm a slacker, I'll just give Dani the lame answer I have for her question now. And only then try to get my mind in a post that kind of covers what I think I've learned with this post...
We have shared what we are learning by: 1. Continuing to read and post in TS; 2. Taking that learning beyond the "borders" of TS into other realms of our life; 3. What do you, TS member, think?Private Reply to Jean Ackle | Sep 04, 2006 3:50 pm | | re: re: re: Does TS encourage anyone to learn? Is it possible to change your mind? | # | Jean Ackle | | This is a great topic John! And BTW thanks for your very informative and motivating entry in my GB! Will get to that soon enough! :D
Well, I first came to Ryze invited by the one I think was the first friend I made online (before Ryze). I've met with him in person two or three times since. But that was about as much as I got on Ryze from him.
After some rather thoughtless look around I eventually, and by chance, came to find the first network I joined at Ryze: Topper's "Free Thinkers". Curiously, we're not "friends" here at Ryze! That should give the both of us an interesting subject. I'll PM him soon as well! Anyway, "Free Thinkers" came along when I was swamping in the academic world of always double-checking your statements and sources - which if you didn't would garantee your swift (most probably) one-way ticket to "outside". And I must say IMEWAO many of those conversations weren't all that clever or interesting! So I kind of burst into Free Thinkers seeing a chance to have interesting "reasonings" (I still remember it was Topper who reminded me of this word in English!) with other interesting people. But I still felt that urge to have a good answer ready - which I assured by only getting into topics I felt rather comfortable with. But to my disgrace the plug was pulled on "Free Thinkers" and I was only starting! Got some good feedback from it though. One of the people I met there was Danielle Cutler! :D
I'd gotten myself into a rather different Network by that time and happened to mention it to Dani. But I think that was only after I PMed her with what I thought might most likely be a provoking message. By that time, I was also used to another network outside Ryze ("tired of" might be a paralelled term there) where politics (USA politics in particular, but lesser than here) were discussed. I can't say for sure I actually expected something different from Dani, but I remember there was a feeling, maybe just hope something different would come out of her. She replied with grace and kindness. :D A feeling of pleasant surprise actually overwhelmed that holding-back disguised as somewhat "clever" (in my mind at least) teasing I intended as preventive-self-defense.
Dani told me of her network (at that time freshly transitioned from couch-potatoes to truth-seekers if I remember correctly). And it gradually but swifitly conquered me. Or maybe, as Topper put it, it became an addiction - a healthy one. This may not be so apparent as I'm not so active as many others. But that is partly because of the same reason I've referred to Topper, not only as an important link to my coming here, but also as someone who posted stuf I linked back in this topic. One reason for that link-back here is that he was a recent psoter in my first (and mos probably last) read-through of all prior posts to my own. Prior posts by so many different people. I confess I have to know more about some of the people who've posted before me on this thread before I "link back"/quote them in this post of mine. This, I believe, is because I can integrate their posts and mine better together in the message I am trying to pass on here after I have seen what I personally think I can work on together with those persons. Maybe this is some way of control-freakness on my part! But I mostly feel it as my current way of bonding with these concrete, real persons. Which may hold some control-freak quality in it, agreed! :D Or I may just be freaking out about control-freakness for some reason. Maybe because I barely had any sleep last night... And I'm freaking trying to control my sleep patterns! :P Like John (I'm just getting to meet) and also James most clearly seem to me to have pointed out in this thread... we are building something together here. "Together" meaning no particular one of us can control or predict, but... we are building it/them by reading this and other threads and most definately by taking a *written* part on them. This last bit of action (just watching is at least partially acting), writing, or otherwise speaking about this, most definitely clarifies this thing we are building together and the individual role we are more or less dynamicaly playing in it. We will change the more dinamicaly we act on this. We will maintain solid whatever gets to come out of it solid. Despite its visibility, but not despite its influence.
I'll try to go to bed and sleep a bit now. :D
Cheers!Private Reply to Jean Ackle | |
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