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Nov 10, 2006 6:01 pm

Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Kannaal parpadhellam poi
Kaadhal ketpadhellam poi
Theevira visaripadhay mei...

Aparently not said by a propounder of SD but by a staunch non-believer --> Periyar...

Cheers

Bharat

Nov 10, 2006 6:22 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

And the link to SD Part 1 if anyone has that kind of free time and patience ;-)

http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=598540&confid=660

Cheers

Bharat

Nov 12, 2006 2:40 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

So what exactly were we trying to talk about previously?

Somone might want to start off with a new topic to chew on...

Cheers

Bharat

Nov 13, 2006 4:19 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Before I start,this thread is a continuation of what the part II is about. The reason for doing the part III is to make it easy to scroll and read.

Salil had written,

Hi, i'm new to ryze and hope i'm allowed to participate here. "Yadha yadha yi dharmasya, glanir bhavathi bharatha; Abhyudhanam adharmasya, thadhaathmaanam srujyaamyaham" I was brought-up in Chinmaya Vidyalaya, hence know a little bit of sanskrit, yoga and ragas. Having worked in the gulf countries more than a decade, i wish to say this.. ..when you are wronged, in deep despair, when all logic n reasoning fails, only faith in god, courage and perseverance can take you through adamantive walls of difficulties. Sanathana Dharma does help you there like a candle-light in utter darkness.

Welcome Salil.

Nice to know that you have studied in Chinmaya vidyalaya. May I know what is your interpretation of the two lines of the verse?

On the last few lines, I wish to bring into discussion what St.Francis if Assissi had said, the difference is how he prays to god and it goes something like this,

Oh lord make me thy instrument of peace,
where there is hatred let me sow love,
where there is injury, pardon,
where there is doubt, faith,
where there is injury, pardon,
wehre there is despair,hope,
where there is darkeness, light,
where there is sadness, joy....

There is the second part to this poem/prayer but that is for another day.

I wrote this poem here to show how a man prays to god to take away the pains of the society.

The second thing is, as what Salil has said, perseverence. But Salil, when you say only faith in god will pass you through the adamantive wall, then are you talking of a definitive period in which that will happen. If not, then you are waiting with time. As it pass there will be a solution is your idea. Faith in god, will give personal comfort. No doubt. But does it solve the problem?

Nov 13, 2006 7:06 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

GR you said - My take is we as Indians (now) are not the only person to take the credit for it. Those statements also include the other countries in this subcontinent.

---------------------------

1. Other than India, none of the other countries claim that the quotes delivered by the rational thinkers mentioned by me is about the achievement of theirs also.

2. No other country mentioned by you follows the path of SD except India. What made them to follow an entirely different path that was not practiced by the followers of SD?

So, when quoted as Indian or India by rational thinkers they meant only the followers of SD and its achivement. But I should applaud your broad mind for giving credit to others also that they do not deserve. More than the name we discuss about the achievements of our ancients from Vedic period.

Nov 13, 2006 7:18 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

BP, Satsang (Theevira visarithal) is the practice of Hinduism. May be without his knowlede Periyar might have follwed the path of SD.

(Was it really said by Periyar ?)

Nov 13, 2006 8:27 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

Salil Ahmed - a warm welcome to you.

Nov 13, 2006 9:43 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Salil Ahmed

Thanks for the Welcome Gyro. Greetings from Kuwait.

My interpretation of those 2 lines ???

I'm just a very ordinary human being gentlemen. I don't think I'll ever have the potential in this lifetime to question/ analyze/ interpret our ancient rishis/ forefathers.

My understanding of those 2 lines are: When Arjuna hesitated to kill his own relatives in the battlefield, Krishna explains the concept of life by telling that "whenever/ wherever righteousness dies in the world and injustice starts prevailing, my dear fellow arjuna (bharatha), I shall come back as a re-incarnation and uphold justice".

Hope I have passed your test. :)

I've been working with Elite Arabs- many of whom have done their PG or Military training in India- and they don't have any issues appreciating Hindu culture as a colourful one. And I can come to conclusions in life only based on my personal experiences.

I have gone to Sabarimala once and I like the concept of TATVAMASI.

I had said .. "..when you are wronged, in deep despair, when all logic n reasoning fails, only faith in god, courage and perseverance can take you through adamantive walls of difficulties. Sanathana Dharma does help you there like a candle-light in utter darkness."

For this I got a cross-examination "But Salil, when you say only faith in god will pass you through the adamantive wall, then are you talking of a definitive period in which that will happen. If not, then you are waiting with time. As it pass there will be a solution is your idea. Faith in god, will give personal comfort. No doubt. But does it solve the problem?"

My reply is "my dear friend, pls read my message again". If needed, read it once more.

Now, my faith in God gives me courage and perseverance to face all adversities in my life.

If you have alternate methods which brings about solutions to problems, thats your life and your faith. Not mine.

Have you ever been thrown inside jail and whiplashed in a foreign country for no mistake of yours Ganesh ram? Has your life taken a 180 degree spin for someone else's treachery? Have you lost anyone very dear to you because of Cancer? Have you seen someone dying in front of your eyes and you just stood there feeling helpless and meek? Do you know what starvation is?

Please tell me Sir.

There are many areas in life where your intellect, rational thinking, analytical powers, connections, political affluence wont take you 1 inch forward. Please remember this. But in those areas your faith in God alone will help you.

Again, this is my experience. My boss, a kuwaiti, who is born with a golden-spoon in his mouth, who doesn't know of any other mode of transport other than his own car n jet, will never understand my values.

"When the push becomes a shove, many people start learning." This is what my english teacher in Chinmaya always used to say.

Salil.

Nov 13, 2006 12:32 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

that Gyro, is because of the politics and the division.

SD in its nascent version is something that has been established as one with lesser number of attributes than what we claim it is in the present. Most of the religions say the same. In fact many of these religions in the sub-continent have a single god unlike Hinduism. So to say one does not practice SD as what Indians(present) would be going against following SD itself.

Again vedic period encompasses more land as a single mass than what we have today. And therefore the achievements would have been more spread out.

We know taxila is in today's pakistan. We know it as a great place of knowledge.

Nov 13, 2006 1:07 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Salil, my question on your interpretation was genuine.

Before I start most of what I am going to say is my own view. It is not to hurt anyone's feeling. Nor do I want anyone to change theirs.

It is nice how you have addresed arjuna as bharatha. This is why I asked you for your interpretation. Many of us know Arjuna as Arjuna and not bharatha.

The whole thing about Krishna's role in Mahabaratha from my POV (point of view)is that he is human as arjuna or others are and is bound to make judgement that might not be correct. The verse puts him as a superhuman who knows everything. And yet at a later day he is killed by his own clan for something he had done in his earlier days.

And in between mahabartha and his demise a lot of things happened. He had to move people out of dwaraka, his abode, elsewhere because the sea was engulfing the city. And his own clan had lots of infighting which he did not solve. He could have being the victory proponent of Mahabartha but he did not.

Also, arjuna showed the greatest passion. A passion to his enemy. The incident is well rendered in one of Anoop Jalota songs. This is in Hindi( or one of its variant).When Arjuna puts his bow and arrow down and goes to Krishna and asks,
"What will I gain by breaking my own home?".
Clearly shows how less enemity is in Arjuna's heart. But Krishna had already planned. He cannot back off now. So he give Arjuna that pep talk with a lot of abstraction.

My response to your statement is not a cross-examination at all. But rather is my way of saying that it is Time and Nature that heals one's heart. Clearly I have not been abusive or against people who follow a faith.

No I have not been thrown into jail and whiplashed.
No my life has not been turned 180 degrees by someone else treachery.

Yes I have lost near and dear ones for cancer, natural disasters and have witnessed the struggle of kids trying to cope up with the loss more than once.In those periods it has been the Time and the nature of those good samaritans that have helped.

You see Salil, you are trying to push the concept of "faith in god". I never did about mine nor have I asked anyone not to have the faith.

From where I stand , the concept of god is human made. It did not exist when man started writing about the Nature in SD. As we started settling down, we needed certain way of life to be in a society. The concept of god was an excellent tool to achieve that social cohesiveness.

Nov 14, 2006 6:10 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

Let the followers of SD originaly from South Africa and later settled down in other part of Indian sub-continent. That is not the point. What I emphasize here is that the achivements of ancients were done based on vedic principles - SD that is very much prevailing only in India. So, the rational thinkers have addressed as India instead of SD or Hinduism in particular.

Nov 14, 2006 4:17 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Not sure where SD came from... but it definitely took root and became popular in this sub-continent.

Bharat

Nov 15, 2006 8:58 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Salil Ahmed

I have never tried to push anything my friend.

Just talking about my beliefs, based on my personal experiences in life. As they say "anubhavam guru!".

If your personal experiences makes you theoretically rational and a genius in analysis and interpretations, I would definitely respect that.

We live only one life. Lets fully live it one day at a time and make it a masterpiece. :)

Salil

Nov 15, 2006 1:25 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Most of the rational thinkers we have listed are Germans. Could it be possible that their knowledge of India was confined to the Present day India? I am asking this because I feel they have less knowledge of the origin of these. For example the Arthashastra's and other old universities.

My other question is was this something to do with the rational thinkers trying to identify themselves with the "Aryan Invasion" thingy?

Nov 15, 2006 2:29 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

I believe that we have the freedom to express ourselves freely on the SD thread, and I would like it to remain this way.

We are on here not to prove ourselves "right" but to listen to a 100 new ways of thinking, all of which are probably right or wrong ro someplace between. I doubt a concept as wide as "god" as you call it(or by any other name), can be limited to just one explanation or truth.

Cheers

Bharat
p.s.: the aryan invasion theory was probably just another pathetic(but successful) by brits and germans to convince people they were born to rule over others...

Nov 15, 2006 2:52 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Sumanth Cidambi

your thought, my perspective...

cheers
s

Nov 15, 2006 4:55 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

I also wonder why they did not talk anything about Buddha or Mahaveera?

Nov 15, 2006 6:16 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Salil,
there is no end to arguements and therefore I will refrain on the "pushing the concept".

The last line excellently said, but proponents of SD talk about reincarnationa and living a life of human and lving things being born again and again and again. Won't that constitute the multiplicity of "a Life"?

Nov 16, 2006 5:33 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

GR, not all are germans.

Albert Einstein - American Scientist
Max Muller - German Scholar
Mark Twain - American Author
Will Durant - American Historian
Romain Rolland - French Philosopher
Dr Arnold Toynbee - British Historian

If you accept that Swami Vivekananda, an Indian Philosopher, also a rational thinker pl. read what he has said about country.

"Civilizations have arisen in other parts of the world. In ancient and modern times, wonderful ideas have been carried forward from one race to another...But mark you, my friends, it has been always with the blast of war trumpets and the march of embattled cohorts. Each idea had to be soaked in a deluge of blood..... Each word of power had to be followed by the groans of millions, by the wails of orphans, by the tears of widows. This, many other nations have taught; but India for thousands of years peacefully existed. Here activity prevailed when even Greece did not exist... Even earlier, when history has no record, and tradition dares not peer into the gloom of that intense past, even from until now, ideas after ideas have marched out from her, but every word has been spoken with a blessing behind it and peace before it. We, of all nations of the world, have never been a conquering race, and that blessing is on our head, and therefore we live....!"

It is already proved that Aryan invasion theory is British-created falsehood. I always wonder how a false information about India is blindly followed by Indians itself. (but so many questions will be asked if there is any positive about India). An Indian Politician and founder of Janatha Party Subramanian Swamy said that "This north-south Aryan-Dravidian divide has been proved wrong by American scholars having taken the DNA of Indians and Europeans and founded that there is not difference between the so-called Aryans and the Dravidians". There are so many proofs to prove that Aryan invasion theory originally devised by F. Max Muller in 1848 is wrong. Also Pl. read what Mr. David Frawley's is written in detail about it if interested.

Nov 16, 2006 5:35 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

GR you asked - " I also wonder why they did not talk anything about Buddha or Mahaveera?"
---------
Did they talk about Vyasa or Krishna ?

Nov 16, 2006 8:39 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

While they did not talk about any religion in particular, don't you think they all would have come to know about India sub continent of the british Raj?

Nov 17, 2006 8:15 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

Hey GR, I think we are back to pavilion on this matter :-)

Nov 17, 2006 8:22 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Salil Ahmed

Ganesh, when I said I have only one life to live, i meant my life as Salil Ahmed. I dont know what will happen to me after death. So, I like to make the best of this life my way.

There were 2 famous characters in T.nadu. MGR who ruled by his actions, and Cho Ramaswamy who was a critic of MGR, and who lives even today with his arguments. Again, there are 2 yester-year heroes- Rajni & Kamal. Rajni known for his simplicity and his belief in God & spirituality, who even tody is respected as a Super Star (even by Vikram) and Kamal for his controversial nature and infamous interefernce with every director.

You choose like who you want to be. Its your life. You can take another birth and start believing in God, blindly. Maybe this birth you are meant to be an example for others, how an eternally doubtful guy will become in life.

Or maybe, some event in the future will turn you as a believer. Or maybe you believe in God, do prayers daily like most people, and keep projecting yourself as a rational thinker. ;)

Just said for the sake of a dialogue. Don't take it personally. :)

Salil

Nov 17, 2006 8:32 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Looks like Salil Ahmed is another avthar of Hari or maybe his buddy in defence from the gulf ;-)

Cheers

Bharath Cola

Nov 17, 2006 8:38 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

You are right BC. Salil Ahmed is my friend. :)))

But, come what may, "Vedas will rule the world" as quoted by Nostradamus. I believe in this strongly and sincerely wish all "rational thinkers" to be alive until then ;)

Cheers,

Hari

Nov 17, 2006 9:21 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

opps - there u go again. no one defied vedas, infact the whole discussion here is on SD which was the prelude to the vedas.

but yes, the rational thinkers here would definetly have questions to ask, if u say vedas = god.

cheers

bharath cola

Nov 17, 2006 1:19 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Salil Ahmed

"GOD IS THE BREATH INSIDE THE BREATH OF ALL LIVING BEINGS" - Kabir, 12th Century Persian Sufi.

Nov 17, 2006 3:16 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Salil ,
you wrote:
=================================================
Or maybe you believe in God, do prayers daily like most people, and keep projecting yourself as a rational thinker. ;)

===================================================

you sound more like my grandma. To cut the story short, at our home in chennai we used to get a lot of the godly magazines. The first guy to read most of them is I. I will then wait for my mom to raise an exception to what I got to say when it comes to religious things citing examples from these magazines. I would give my interpretation of the same. At which instance my granny would say of all the people in the house, I am the one who thinks of god the most.

your example of cine stars was good. But the same rajinikant , as the stories go around,had his own misgivings while he entered the cine field.

Nov 17, 2006 3:25 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Salil,
from your Kabir quote,
But wouldn't that mean one is confining god to a particular place? And what about those that are non-living? Which will take us to the prahald version where it said, that prhalad counters his father by saying, he is in the pillar as well as in the minutest particle. Which then would bring us to a question then if he is prevalent everywhere , how can we eat god, walk on god, kill anyone for god is everywhere.

Would it not then

if the GOD was/is within Rama, he/she/it was/is there within Ravana?

Doesn't Gita say that to us?

Then if we do consider Krishna as a GOD then wouldn't that mean that duryodhana a part of Krishna (by definiton of Krishna) is killed by Arjuna who is none other than Krishna himself(again by definition of Krishna)?

Nov 17, 2006 3:29 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Hmmm.. Actually I should agree those praises really made me feel good. But I will still say they were opinionated based on the British India.

Nov 17, 2006 4:30 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Yeah, the brits/germans sure wrote about the Vedas.

It must be noted that few of them wrote about Krishna because they considered "idol worship" similar to paganism, which christianity had uprooted in Europe to become the only religious faith.

The vedas - especially the Upanishads - rarely talk about god or any deity for that matter. This somehow appeals to people who consider themselves "rational".

Nov 17, 2006 4:54 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

If GOd does exist as an entity, can I have those quoting vedas and puranas explain to me what is the meaning of the below statement...

When one finds the true self within, he declares...
AHAM BRAHMASMI.

wat is the meaning u derive of the above sanskrit words?

Cheers
Bharath Cola

Nov 17, 2006 5:20 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

BC, But by saying the sanskrit phrase, aren't we making Brahmam as an entity itself and giving an attribute?

To identify ourself to the Brahmam needs one to go with the Time and not dissect the good and the bad, the best and the worst, and all other opposites that we can think of. Wouldn't that be true or would it be false?

Nov 17, 2006 5:23 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

BP, true. The friction comes only when one propagates the "derived" divinity from our epics. For those who believe in such divinity, the rest seem to be irrationaly "Rational".

Nov 17, 2006 5:33 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Sumanth Cidambi

cannot be read in itself... part of a set...

"i am you and what i see is me"... echoes, pink floyd

cheers
s

Nov 18, 2006 7:19 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Salil Ahmed

Ganesh, so its your Grandma who spoiled you :D

AHAM BRAHMASMI (I am God) and TATVAMASI (You are That; You are God) all mean the same.

Rational thinking should be able to arrive at concrete solutions. The problem to a solution should never lead to another problem.

Rajnikanth might have had misgivings in past. What is he today? A guy who went on the verge of committing suicide, strays into the caves of Raghavendra and comes back to material life with rejuvenated spirits. Thats all matters.

His association with Himalayas and spiritual pursuit gives him the strength to oppose a powerful political figure. He is very much a celebrity even today. We need not dig deep and probe if Rajni is having symptoms of malari or jaundice today and hence declare "he is like the rest of us".

I don't understand how the hell can people argue so vaguely even after (i assume this) having read the works of Swami Vivekananda. This is one personality who is recognized worlwide.

My firm contention is this. Faith moves mountains. I have very good examples or real incidents to prove this in my own life.. And, I'm a devout Muslim who appreciates the finer points of other religions.

Salil

Nov 18, 2006 7:39 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Salil Ahmed

Typing error in para 3 of my earlier post.

Pls read as "Solution to a problem should never lead to another problem". Error is regretted. :)

Salil

Nov 18, 2006 12:38 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

I recently read a beautiful book by name "The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari".

I strongly recommend this book to all participants of this thread.

Cheers,
Hari

Nov 18, 2006 6:48 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Not to forget the Conversations with God book... Atleast the first one made quite an interesting read.

Bharat

Nov 20, 2006 5:33 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Hari have read it many months back. Good book.

Aham Bhramasmi - is declared when a person no more needs the conduit called GOD in the search to realize the Truth.

The journey in search of the truth is from "many to one and from one to none" meaning - in the quest of self search your mind moves from many thoughts to one dominant and pertinent thougth, and finally at the very end of the journey, it's the ability to realize that from that one thought to NONE - no thought, is exactly when truth dawns on you. When this will happen is not in your hands, its existence�s reward for your efforts of holding on to that one thought. Existence makes you drop it in the end. And in that end, when you drop it you cease to exist and that�s when in your non-existance the state of truth reveals to you. In that realization, you know that the TRUTH is neither a destination to reach nor an entity to realize, but an experience of the source which resides in you and its connectivity to the omnipresent all pervading order.

Its then one declares AHAM BHRAMASMI.

The path chosen to reach this destinations are many and amongst them the 2 most popular paths are devotion and questioning.

Devotion is stated by learned of the past as Bhakthi Yoga, where you move your mind from its random thoughts to one dominant thought � devotion to a particular deity of your choice and pour your devotion to it day in and day out and in the end, existence enables you to drop the deity and surrender in devotion to the ORDER of the SOURCE.

The other popular but relatively less traversed path is � Gyana Yoga, where when questions the existence of everything and anything, with a dominant thought of realizing the truth. So the rational mind questions every explaination given, questions every proven theory and fills its knowledge base with its own realizations, more knowledge, more questioning, more answers more rational� till the very end, existence unfolds itself to this mind of rational thinking and in that unfolding the rational thinker dissolves and truth reveals.

Both are just paths seeking the same destination and I find in this discussion of SD, men who have chosen the path of Bhakthi Yoga debating with men who have chosen the paths of Gyana yoga. Hence the unwarranted fuid.

If you have chosen Bhakthi Yoga � drop your need to prove or defeat anyone in the process, instead dwell back into your chosen path of devotion and those who have chosen Gyana Yoga � this forum is one more attempt in your chosen journey.

If neither of the above applies to you � participate to choose a path for the future.

OM DAT SAT.

Note : Someone said Faith works. Yes it does, it works not because of the OBJECT of Faith, but because of the SUBJECT in Faith. Irrespective of the OBJECT of FAITH exist with the SUBJECT - it will surely work. It workd and it will...

Bharath Cola

Nov 20, 2006 5:44 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

A correction of sentance in the last line.

Note : Someone said Faith works.
Yes it does,
it works not because of the OBJECT of Faith,
but because of the SUBJECT in Faith.
Irrespective of the OBJECT of FAITH
Faith works if the SUBJECT remains in faith

it will surely work. It worked and it will...

Nov 20, 2006 12:51 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Salil, you are standing on the other side and defining rules for those who are not on yours :-)

There is no such thing as concrete solution at all. You would have seen it in your profession. As time passes newer ideas sprout. These might not be THE answer.

Clearly, our epics show us that the drama is always done by one time against the society personalities, Valmiki then Rajinikant in the recent past ;-)

Just because someone is known worldwide does not mean their views cannot be question. Also it was Swami Vivekananda who said in one of his lectures have supposed to have said,

"That which exists everywhere; People call it by different names"

And also had said, that Indra is not a single Deva but a seat that have been occupied by many.

Actually, it does not matter what religion one follows when discussing SD. That too in countries like India, where one sees a harmony most of the time, it totally become irrelevant.

Nov 21, 2006 9:28 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Jnana Yoga as I know it:

Jnana is knowledge. To know Brahman as one's own Self is Jnana. To say, "I am Brahman, the pure, all-pervading Consciousness, the non-enjoyer, non-doer and silent witness," is Jnana. To behold the one Self everywhere is Jnana.

Jnana Yoga or the science of the Self is not a subject that can be understood and realized through mere intellectual study, reasoning, discussion or arguments. It is the most difficult of all sciences.

A student who treads the path of Truth must, therefore, first equip himself with Sadhana Chatushtaya - the "four means of salvation". They are discrimination, dispassion, the sixfold qualities of perfection, and intense longing for liberation - Viveka, Vairagya, Shad-Sampat and Mumukshutva. Then alone will he be able to march forward fearlessly on the path. Not an iota of spiritual progress is possible unless one is endowed with these four qualifications.

These four means are as old as the Vedas and this world itself. Every religion prescribes them; the names differ from path to path but this is immaterial. Only ignorant people have the undesirable habit of practicing lingual warfare and raising unnecessary questions. Pay no attention to them. It is your duty to try to eat the fruit instead of wasting time in counting the leaves of the tree. Try now to understand these four essential requisites for salvation.

...from the Teachings of SWAMI SIVANANDA.

Cheers,

Hari

Nov 21, 2006 12:04 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Hari,

Good to see a responce after a couple of days of hybernation. Guess you where preoccupied or searching the answers to respond to the post ;-)

Either ways good to see the post coming back.

What you have posted is the penultimate stage of knowing the brahman, what I have posted is the starting stage sir.

YOu need to start and the start in the quest of gnaya yoga is to dispelling the ignorance and that happens with questioning and not acceptance of everything without rational.

as you say "Gnana is knowledge" it cannot happen without questioning.

Someone's limited understanding and judgemental nature may term it as "ignorant people have the undesirable habit of practicing lingual warfare and raising unnecessary questions". But to the seeker, its his journey.

Choose your path and cherish it, let me enjoy the fruits and the beauty of the leaves too, in the process I may count the leaves or admire the whole tree.

Cheers

Bharath Cola

Nov 21, 2006 6:48 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

I do not know who this Sivananda is, but having seen the swami infront of his name should be a very learned person.

If we only learn by listening, then we get only part of what is really there. Many parts of our shlokas and prayers that were passed on by listening either diluted or simply became paraphrase of the original. But those aspects of life that were questioned, accepted and retained many of the original.

In his song Sarvam Brahmamayam, Sadasiva Brihimendra, goes on to say,

translation for the first 4 stanzas,

Everything is Brahma Mayam
1.What may be spoken and what may not be spoken, what can be created and what may not be created
2. What may be studied and what not to be studied, what may be recited and what may not be recited
3. What may be taught and what may not be taught; what may be enjoyed and what may not be enjoyed .

I brought this up to show the contrast and variety between two learned persons talking about Brahmam

Nov 21, 2006 6:48 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

I guess we will never know what Gnana really is until we come upon Gnana itself...

Cheers

Bharat

Private Reply to Lord Baron

Nov 22, 2006 5:04 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Lord Baron

Hey bharat...you dont say much but you are pretty much accurate...LOL

mahesh

Nov 22, 2006 6:09 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

BC: It doesn't take me - a guy who has decided Sanyasa as my future and Nirvana as my ultimate objective/ destination in life - 2 days to reply to a thread on Ryze. :)

As you said "everything is available on the click of a mouse" these days. ;)

What I posted on Jnana Yoga was a very basic lesson from the Teachings of Swami Sivananda, to whom I'm exposed from a very early age of 5. Swamiji and his disciples have stayed at my Grandparents place in Palakkad. I'm very close to a couple of Swamijis now, who stay at my palce in Chennai, whenever they come down here. So, I also happen to know a li'l bit of all these things, though I'm not in "any stage" right now!!!

For those who haven't heard about Swami Sivananda Saraswati, he founded the SIVANANDA ASHRAM and The Divine Life Society in Rishikesh/ Himalayas and is his disciples are famous acroos the world. One of his disciples Swami Tatatmananda, an erstwhile computer Engineer, who went to Rishikesh and took Deeksha. Swami Tatatmananda has an ashram in NJ, called Arsha Bodha Center.

Another FAMOUS disciple of Swami Sivananda is Swami Chinmayananda who founded CHINMAYA MISSION.

More details can be had at: http://www.dlshq.org/saints/siva.htm.

Cheers,
Hari

Nov 22, 2006 6:32 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

At times modesty camouflages the ego's responses. A "stage" of human's ego.

Nov 22, 2006 1:51 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

What I do know about Sivananda is that he wrote tons of books on Vedanta and Yoga, all of which make interesting reading are available for free download someplace on internet.

I have also been to the Sivananda ashram in Rishikesh, which is a kickass place...

Hari, best of luck on your sannyasa... do you intend to renounce the outer world (or) the inner world (or) both?

Cheers

Bharat

Nov 22, 2006 4:35 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

A great soul indeed this sivananda. More than his nearness to the God, his nearness to the society appealed to me more.

Nov 23, 2006 8:57 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

BP: I have along way to go...

Let me finish my karmic worldly duties as a son, brother, uncle, husband, friend etc. first.

Then I will decide on a path to Self Realisation. :)

Cheers,
Hari

Nov 23, 2006 11:41 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Why Spirituality? Is it for salvation or fulfilment of life?

Bharath Cola

Nov 23, 2006 12:40 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

BOTH.

Nov 23, 2006 12:52 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Life's fulfilment is in maximising and optimizing one's potential.

Salvation is a holistic means of surrender to the source to merge once and for all.

They are my understandings.

How then is Life's fulfilment achieved by with holding action, thereby denying pontential manifestation?

Bharath Cola

Nov 23, 2006 1:42 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

I have given a lucid narration about my aspirations in my ryze-page. I have certain materialistic pursuits. On achieving that I have certain "higher" goals. The final goal is to attain Nirvana.

Spirituality is an ANCHOR for me. I derive strength from my religious/ spiritual inclination to fulfil my material goals currently.

Over a period of time the pursuit of TRUTH or SELF will become a mainstream course-of-action. This is MY PATH. Karma, Bhakti, Jnana and then Raja Yoga.

Noone has ever compelled me to with-hold action and deviate from my karmic duties and jump into Sanyasa.

I think this is the case for all of us. We have every right to take care of our body, mind and soul.

Making MONEY and growing rich is not a sin. A guy with Lakhs is called a Lakshaadhipathi in Tamil. But a guy with Crores is called Kodeeshwaran. He is considered equivalent to Eshwaran.

Simply put, a guy with Crores can contribute more to the society and humanity than a hungry, poor mortal.

Nov 24, 2006 5:15 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Hari,
but don't you think to contribute to the society , there needs to be at least one such thing like the poor, hungry mortal? What I mean is if only there is hunger, one gets a chance to feed. What this would lead to is the expectation in me for people to be poor and hunger when I am not.

To think that "I will become a koteeswaran to help the poor and hungry", alienates the person from the society, for where and when will the making and becoming koteeswaran end?

Nov 24, 2006 6:22 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

GR: I dont understand ur language. Please be more lucid.

Nov 27, 2006 2:46 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Hari,
my point was a retort to the last line in your post which goes as,
=========================================================
Simply put, a guy with Crores can contribute more to the society and humanity than a hungry, poor mortal
=========================================================

and my take is two fold,
1) I expect someone to have a want which I would "fix" by my money power

2) Once thirst for money is in place, then quenching that is a never ending process.

Also don't you think it is the hungry and the poor mortal that are helping me to help the society?

Nov 28, 2006 9:40 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

1) Not always
2) Not necessarily

Nov 29, 2006 9:50 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Sanadana Dharma or any "way of life" should be a guiding manual to enable a man in living his life holistically.

What is holistic living, let the MAN decide for himself. Life is a Choice and not a consequence of other's definition of what life should be.

My choice is, as mentioned earlier in SD Part 1 - is the life of Krishna, I call it KRISHNAHOOD.

Without arguing on the validity of his existance, I really admire that character. He was born in a prison, seperated from his real parents, brought up by foster parents, was a cowherd by profession, BUT inspite of all this

he lived life like a king, thats the way to live.

He was loved by all, thats the way to live.

He was looked upto by all, thats the way to live.

I havnt read of any elder complaining of his arrogance, thats the way to live.

He was treated as the all pervading omnipresent source, thats the way to live.

You only live once as you are in this birth, make the most of it and live like Krishna.

1.Work with devotion
2.gain all the abundance of what you can from this world - both materialistically and non-materialistically.
3.Gain all relevant knowhow about life
4. be open and respectful to fellow human beings
5.be devoted to who has made you and be with you - family
6.do your bit to this planet for having hosted you as a human being
7.stay aligned to the spiritual source to make the most of it, beyound your physical/intellectual capabilities
8.be cheerful, happy and accept life as it flows without resistance.
9. Have a BALL with life.
10. in the process, leave a legacy that the world will remember you for....

these are my 10 commandments - my guide towards KRISHNAHOOD

Cheers
Bharath Cola

Nov 29, 2006 12:17 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

Dear CB - Your piece of writtings are always adding value to the topic of SD. Nice Executive summary you have presented.

Nov 29, 2006 12:26 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Hail Moses. S O R R Y.

Hail Bharath Cola!

Nov 29, 2006 12:37 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Thnx Gyro.

Dude Hari - for heavens sake, spare me from the words "religion" and "Deity" :-)

Those are my commandments for me to follow.

If you want to hit me with something, pls use stones, not these words ;-)

anyway - in the process of spreading the message, if you earn some moolah, dont forget to give me the royalty :-)

Cheers

Bharath Cola

Nov 29, 2006 12:41 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Sure Bloke.

10% of all I make is yours. :)))

Nov 29, 2006 1:58 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

now for some serious discussion - i will let my agency discuss with you on the percentages and terms... LOL

Nov 29, 2006 5:33 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

The very reason for a Krishna probably is the lacuna that existed in the society with the Rama's character,I guess.

But he, the Krishna, did live a life no doubt. What an excellent caricature of a lifestyle not by one but by many and spanning over centuries.

Nov 30, 2006 7:12 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Bharath

Nice take on Krishna..

Yeah, the "character" Krishna was indeed kickass. Now, was it one person, or several people, or fiction, or fictious incidents in the life of a real person - we will never know, but there still is no life in Mahabharatha without him.

Cheers

Bharat

Dec 01, 2006 2:32 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

BP agreed. so will there be no life in Mahabaratha without Sakuni, and in Ramayana without manthArai(cooni).don't you think.

Dec 01, 2006 5:29 pm

Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

I still think Mahabharatha without Krishna and his escapades wouldnt be just as intersting, just like the Ramayana wouldnt just be the same without Hanuman...

But yeah, would still be a good story I presume..

Cheers

Bharat

Dec 02, 2006 10:27 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

Cho had narrated about Gopikas history in 'Hindu Maha Samudram' in Duglak issue dt. 15.11.2006. Similar kind of info I found from net as follows:

The gopikas have been misunderstood and misrepresented by commentators. Gopikas symbolise thoughts. Radha symbolises the combination of all thoughts in the mind. So, thoughts and the mind should merge with Krishna. Gopikas are misunderstood because of wrong judgment. The gopikas had the one pointed, unwavering, clear, pure love. The relationship between the gopikas and Krishna as depicted in the Bhagwatam has been unfortunately judged by persons who have not regulated and controlled their vrittis. This subject is beyond comprehension of such people. Only Brahmacharis of the most ardent nature and ascetic people like Suka Maharshi, who described it to Parikshit and in the recent years Ramakrishna Paramahamsa can appreciate that relationship and pronounce upon its uniqueness. All the rest are apt to see in it only the reflection of their own feelings and failings. The language of Samsara is the only language they know; the regions of Thuriya, beyond the regions of wakefulness, dream and deep sleep, to which those experiences relate are not within their reach. So they drag the subject down to their own level and claim that they have mastered the mystery.

Gopikas had sacred ideas, selfless bhakthi and selfless prema. We are unable to understand the sacredness of their prema and we misinterpret all their actions and give them wrong meanings. Because of this selfless and sacred nature of the bhakthi of Gopikas towards Krishna we talk of them even today.

Actually who are these gopikas? According to Bhagwatham, they are the Gods who wanted to share the glory of the Avatar, and came down to the world as witnesses and shared in the Divine Leela. They came for a purpose. They are not ordinary village folks who could be dismissed as a crowd of voluptuous women. They saw in every gesture and gait, every word and phrase of Krishna, the Divine, not human at all. They had no occasion or chance to be agitated by a secular vrithi; all vrithis were awakened by Divine prompting. Like the magnifying glass which catches the rays of the sun and directs them all to the spot, thus concentrating the heat on one point and helping it to ignite, the hearts of the gopis collected all the Vrithis and concentrated them and caused illumination and the flame. The flame burnt all dross and the illuminations are to be said at the door of either ignorance or the pompous pride of mere book learning, which scorns the exercise of discipline.

http://members.rediff.com/saivani/Gopikas.htm

Dec 02, 2006 11:25 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Gyro - its interesting that you have raised the statement that gopikas are just thougths are in reality not true wives/concubines/lovers of krishna.

thats exactly the same with the whole mahabharat - is what we should also explore to beleive in.

as much as how gopikas are explained as selfless love, bakthi, prema (as u say) is what the whole mahabarat could be... hidden messages woven beautifully in a story format.

every stage of ramayana and mahabarat are messages on how to live life woven extraordinarily in a massive mega story format with various sub stories.

today u have doctrates and students in research decipering various new things.

have we thougth as a possibility the below..
yesteryears - students of gurukul under the guidance of guru's to have done R&D at la doctorate, to simplify the messages of SD to the next generations.. maybe the best format decided was the format of STORY, to take the messages to the masses.. maybe the masses didnot understand SD and the Upanishads.. so a story format could be simpler and get the attention and surrender of people, if its depicted as KRISHNA/RAMA the all pervading.

so maybe thats how these epics where formed?!!!!

infact if u notice, more recently buddha came up with simple stories (Jakarta) involving animals and humans in short stories with messages to the common man. he had a moral in each story.

we have moral science in school.

so why cant the epics be great work with a moral in each part... we have lost the morals and are holding on to the stories and its characters.

maybe thats what the great students/gurus thougth also.. if tomorrow the morals are lost, the story will stand the test of times and will benifit the god fearing... they were wiser.

cheers

bharath cola

Dec 03, 2006 7:50 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

I guess it is a great assumption that we have lost morals and older generations had lots of morals...

I dont believe that...

After all, all we know about the older generation is what they had written down... so, is difficult to believe they would write predominantly bad things about themselves...

So I guess we are as amoral as the older generations were..

Bharat

Dec 04, 2006 8:46 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

BP - I didnt generalise the OLDER Generation as ALL of THEM. I meant the elite few, the wiser lot, which was prevailing then.

Also When I SAY the Morals are lost, its not refering to the morals of living. It meant, the morals prevailing in those stories.. wher probably lost.

Nor did my writing mean, that the current world has no morals.

So its not a great assumption of the whole world... it was with relevance to those stories.

Bharath COla

Dec 04, 2006 5:22 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

That is what I have been saying in our SD thread. It is that the epics are Stories spun based on the validity of social norms.

And once we take that approach, you will not question the "polyandry" in Draupadi's marriage. The story behind why she got married to all would have come at a later stage when "polyandry" itself satrted waning and the concept of a "one man- one woman" bacame a norm.

Also, morality is based on how a society views an action at at particular period of time. What is moral in certain society is amoral in others in a same period of time and within the society iteself at different periods of time.

Ramayana, for instance has a lot of these.
1) The birth of Rama
( Not legally born to Dasaratha)

2) A kshatriya being a non-white( assuming dasratha was not dark-complexioned)

3) The idea to prove oneself to be the crowned prince
(sending Rama and LaskshmaNa to the forest with Viswamithra)

4) A "not a child born for of the king" being readied for coronation. Cooni's character would have just meant that in a way like " if Rama can so can Bharatha be the crowned"

5) The problems of having multiple wives.

6) the wives themselves of different characters

and so on..

And it is only by stories that huge population can be kept cohesive as a society.

Dec 04, 2006 9:18 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Yay! More gyan and rationalisation from Ganesh.

Ganesh, I believe that a lot of Bhaktas take the word of ramayana or mahabharata literally - just like the bhaktas of other religious texts do...

Please read a copy of the Bhagavadgita from ISKCON if you dont believe me... atleast a few chapters. You will never be able to fully appreciate the book unless you suspend all your other beliefs and "accept" temporarily (or permanently) that Krishna is the supreme and only lord.

But I guess, every shade of belief has space with books like these, which lend themselves both to the bhaktas and to the gyanis... each to his/her own I guess.. interpret them as you please, and that would be the truth for you.

Cheers

Bharat

Dec 04, 2006 9:58 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
I have a lot of respect to Cho's writings. But from a political satire point of view.

If that is the case with gopikas and Krishna, one should read the lyrics of "Thayae yasodha" by uthukAdu venkata subbramaniya iyer. In fact many of the verses are not even sung in kutcheris( to give the benefit of the doubt for want of time I suppose).

Many of these were written in a height of ecstacy(not the pill), but what I would call as a "genuine eccentric" writing.

Dec 05, 2006 6:45 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

BC � Just to make the funda more clear and understandable it was explained by giving examples as thoughts and mind for gipikas and radha. Pl. also read last para of my previous posting and entire link if possible.

BP � Even in those days there were Duriyodhanas, Duchadhanas, Ravanas etc. Our puranas talks about Asurars too and not only Devars. So in all periods the world is mixed with good and bad. Highly intelligent, clever and ordinary human beings. Otherwise there won�t be guys who were simply standing outside the room all the time or girls doing simple jobs (like fanning to king & Queens).

GR � In the writing Cho has included what Swami Vivekanada has narrated about this episode. Whatever question we have it our mind regarding Krishnaleela is asked by King Parichat and replied by Sukar Maharishi who is son of Muni Veda Vyasa. May be I can scan those three pages (of Duglak - Hindu Maha Samudram) and send it by e-mail to you all people (CB/GR/BP) if you are interested.

It gives us comfort to believe all these are stories because that is how our brain has been trained right from beginning through educational method. We are not logically convinced about so many things that is part of SD. By applying similar logic and knowledge if one asks how the world has evolved right from beginning no one can give convincing answer. Or if we ask how a person is able to lift his body against gravitational force just by doing yoga no scientific answer could be given. With the advancement of Electronics & Communication and developments in other fields we live in a sophisticated world today. All these would have been appeared as magic if some had talked about present world achievements 500 years before. This is how the understanding goes wrong. We try to understand Eastern language with the help of western letters. Obviously it won�t match and not understandable at all.

Dec 05, 2006 9:01 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Sumanth Cidambi

probably quantum theory might help... in understanding eastern thought seen through western lenses, that is...

cheers
s

Dec 05, 2006 11:05 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Whatever said, we Indians (Hindus especially) are lucky to have such wonderful stories. Forget the Management Lessons derived for Corporate Seminars these days worldover. They definitely add colour to your faith and imagination faculty.

Hindu traditions and rituals are the most COLOURFUL in this world.

Cheers,
Hari

Dec 05, 2006 4:19 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

The one thing I agree is that we seem to be copying the western education system. While, there are obvious advantages, we should definitely give some thought and attention to the centuries of learning we have in books and stories..

Bharat

Dec 05, 2006 4:32 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Hari said:
====================================================
Hindu traditions and rituals are the most COLOURFUL in this world.
========================================================

I guess many african/south american/mayan tribes have colorful rituals comparable to the Hindus of India. I have seen Malaysians have rich and vibrant festivities just like the east Indians.

Dec 06, 2006 10:16 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Every religion/culture thinks it is the most colorful, evolved, kickass one on this planet and others are spurious...

Tell me something new.

Bharat

Dec 09, 2006 5:13 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

All quiet over the weekend I presume...

Dec 11, 2006 7:56 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

BP: Regarding ur rant on "tell me something new", my comments are:

1. I do have an opinion.

2. I do not voice it only with the purpose of voicing it. I must see some use to it - and you are not the one who decides what its use may be.

3. I empathise spontaneously.

4. I worry about what others think and feel up to the point it helps me decide whether or not it is useful (again on my own standards) to speak out and in what way.

Cheers,

Hari

Dec 11, 2006 7:56 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

Bharat,

I just reproduce my reply posted Sep 28, 2006 5:39am on this front.

The unique count of Hinduism (among many).......

if people from other religion question the basics of Hinduism or debate the concept of Sanatana Dharma they will not be seen as anti Hindu or atheist. They would be respected as knowledge seeker and responded in an appropriate manner. Anybody can question on Vedas, Upanishads, Gita or Purana. Just think other way round. Suppose I question bible or ask how can Islam says that they pray formless god when the name Allah itself is of male sex (means there god has a shape of male) I will be immediately glared as anti Christ or anti Islam which is not so in SD. Hinduism is really unique on this count.

Gyro

Dec 11, 2006 5:15 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Chill guys.

Was just telling you how every religion and the people following it judge themselves and their ideas.

Every single religion and followers atleast think they have the sole copyright on god and his communication to mankind and the right way to lead life on this planet...

Everybody talks from their point of view.

I am not denying that SD probably has lots of impressive points to its credit...

Bharat

Dec 22, 2006 6:45 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Lemme try reviving the lull on this thread...

I wanna know the exact meaning of...

>"Theekkul viralai vaithaal nandalala, ninnai theendum inbham thondrudhada nandalala..."

Can someone enlighten me please?

Cheers,

Hari

Dec 22, 2006 1:13 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

As for Gyro's,
I was watching National Geographic for the past three days. Being Christmas time, there are lots of info about christians and christianity, the crusades and other such details. The past three nights they did have documentaries on Mary Magadelene, her relation to Jesus, the Holy Grail(thought to be information about the lineage of Jesus)and about Judas. I am saying this because, like in Hidnuism there is a study that goes on Christianity as well questioning everything that is said to be christian.

And for Hari,
IMHO, it is too very difficult to get the exact meaning for any poem. simply because it is a poem.

Dec 22, 2006 6:58 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

This is a translation I got from a blog: ....Through the singeing caress of an orange flame, I feel your rapturous presence O' Nanda. From Barathiyar

Dec 26, 2006 8:49 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

Hari, Bhrathiyar was a great poet. He saw the spritualness (Nandalala) in each & everything. So in fire too. That is the reason he wrote that he feels like touching the Krishna when he puts his finger in fire. He sees in feather of crow too. That is the reason that poem starts with 'Kakaisiraginile nandalala.............'

WHAT A LOVELY SONG !!!!!!!!!!

Dec 26, 2006 9:42 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

GR - If this is the case why was such hue & cry about release of Davinci code? However, I don�t want to digress from main topic. In ryze itself I have got the practical experience questioning Christianity & feedbacks :)))))

Dec 26, 2006 3:27 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

The first line "Kakai siraginilae nanda lala" is probably more of a literal translation what krishna name is. In Sanskrit Krishna means dark like the rainy clouds. Many a times, the color of rama and krishna are put as green and blue. Which I guess they were not.

Krishna was called in several place as "neela megha shyamalan" and rama in one of the tamil poem is described as "Pachai mAmalai pOl mEAni, pavalzha vAi, kamal chengaN".

Both of the above description portray Rama and Krishna of a darker skin color. And that I think is something both our epics put forward. the onset of kshtriyAs( as one who is the king/rules) being dark in color.

As for Hari's, here is another explanation for the same lines but this time explaining the unconditioned love of "Choodi kodutha chudarkodi, AndAL", and it goes as,

3158: aRiyum senN theeyaith thazhuvi* 'achchudhan' ennummeyvEvaaL,* eRiyumthaN kaaRRaith thazhuvi* 'ennudaik gOvindhan' ennum,* veRikoL thuzhaaymalar naaRum* vinaiyudai yaattiyEn peRRa* seRivaLai mun_kaich chiRumaan* seyginRadhu en_kaNNukku onRE. 4.4.3

3. Everyone (including the kid, if cautioned) knows that the fire can not be touched and will burn the body. My crazy, mad girl is almost touching the fire and says" AchuthA!" But nothing happens to her body. (SubrahmaNya Bharathi says " TheekuL viralai vaitthaal, NandalaalA! Unnai theeNdum inbham thOnrudhaiyA NandalaalA- When I put my finger inside the fire, it gives me a feeling of touching You, NandalaalA- he is also a Great poet). She hugs the cool chill breeze and says "My dear GovindhA!". Her body is smelling with such Great Fragrance like ParimaLam and ThuLasi leaves. Even when she laments for Emperumaan Sriman NarayaNan she smells so much divine; But, the MahApaapi, I am, suffering and unable to solve her pangs of pains. Her sufferings are countless; Her crazy actions are so many. I have lost count.

Taken from Thiruvaimozhi

Dec 26, 2006 5:19 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Bharathi yaar?

Cheers, I am on vacation....

Bharat

Dec 27, 2006 10:38 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Gyro

Even the poem itself confirm the color of Krishna as black. 'Nindhan kariya niram thondruthada nandalala'. Kariya niram means black in color. Not all the people have the vision to see (or treat) every thing around the world is equal that Bharathiyar was capable of. So with that full devotion and calibre if puts the finger in fire he says that it will be felt like "ninai thendum inbam thondruthada nandalala".

He even hugs donkys and take them to home passionately. Even when he is ungry he feeds the birds that is usually sorrounds in his house. He is the first man to do upanayanam to lower caste people in groups. More than the thread the thinking of equality is important here.

Bharathiyar - A greatest human being.

Dec 28, 2006 5:50 am

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Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Recently during a search on the internet, I came upon a very fascinating article about the similarities between Christ and Krishna. Here are a few paragraphs from that article:(The rest of the article can be read at: hinduism.about.com)

The father of the Krishna Consciousness Movement AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada once remarked: "When an Indian person calls on Krishna, he often says, Krsta. Krsta is a Sanskrit word meaning attraction. So when we address God as Christ, Krsta, or Krishna we indicate the same all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead.
When Jesus said, 'Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be Thy name', the name of God was Krsta or Krishna."

Prabhupada further says: "'Christ' is another way of saying Krsta and Krsta is another way of pronouncing Krishna, the name of God�the general name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose specific name is Krishna. Therefore whether you call God 'Christ', 'Krsta', or 'Krishna', ultimately you are addressing the same Supreme Personality of Godhead�Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said: namnam akari bahu-dha nija-sarva-saktis. (God has millions of names, and because there is no difference between God's name and Himself, each one of these names has the same potency as God.)"

God or Man?

Hindus believe that Jesus, like Lord Krishna, is just another avatar of the Divine, who came down to show humanity in the righteous way of life. This is another point where Krishna resembles Christ, a figure who is both "fully human and fully divine."

Krishna and Jesus were both saviors of mankind and avatars of God who have returned to earth at an especially critical time in the lives of their people. They were the incarnates of the Divine Being Himself in human form to teach human beings divine love, divine power, divine wisdom, and lead the benighted world towards the light
of God.

Dec 28, 2006 1:00 pm

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Ganesh Ram

and here are the differences between Christ and Krishna,

1) Christ primarily fought the social injustice at the Jewish temple. Krishna was fighting for what we now call as "dharmam"

2) Christ is believed to be born to virgin Mary. Krishna was born to a married couple

3) Christ had mostly male followers during his lifetime, Krishna had female followers in his earlydays.

4) The life history of Christ starts at crucification and then goes back in time to his birth. Krishna's starts at his birth and seldom talks of his death.

IMHO,ISKCON primarily is/was an organization trying to establish itself in the western world when little or no knowledge of Hinduism was available in the western country, and therefore there were/are many number of relations construed between Christinity and Hinduism.

What we forget is Jesus was a Jew and therefore ISKCON should have related the Hindus to Jews.Which I guess is more apt because:
1) Hindus worship in temples and so does Jews
2) Both have rituals that are pretty similar(esp the cross thread ceremony for boys alone)
3) Both worship fire
4) Both at one point of time had corrupted officials in the temples

Just my humble opinion as usual :)

Dec 28, 2006 1:05 pm

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Ganesh Ram

gyro,
but even before Bharathiyar, there were people who had given the description of Rama and Krishna.

In the song, "Pachai mAmalai pOl mAeni", I think this poem was rendered even before bharathiyAr's time( can someone authenticate this?) the very idea that Rama's body was like the dark green mountain describes the darkishness of Rama's color.

Jan 03, 2007 2:09 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Happy new year 2007.

Bharat

Jan 03, 2007 9:03 pm

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Ganesh Ram

I stand corrected. I guess Pachai mAmayil pOl maeni is also addressed to Krishna.

Jan 14, 2007 6:42 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Happy Pongal celebrations to all

Bharat

Jan 18, 2007 7:10 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

so what is the conclusion on Krishna, Christians and Jews?

Bharat

Jan 19, 2007 4:54 pm

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Ganesh Ram

One of the conclusions I can come up with is, the world could have gone through a similar social climatic change at some parts of the world.

This would clearly be known from the fact that nomadic life started to slowly wane. The idea of society and social ethics started waxing in.

Jan 21, 2007 6:41 pm

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Bharat P

Some kinda collective descent into agrarian societies?

bharat

Jan 22, 2007 8:10 pm

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Ganesh Ram

agrarian? mightbe. We do know both Krishna and Jesus have/had something to do with herdsmanship in the literal sense as well as in the philosophical sense. And that is why I guess many of these compare and contrast with Jesus and Krishna are primarily due to the lifestyle of the respective society.

Jan 23, 2007 5:56 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

I am not sure if animal husbandry came first or agriculture, but I am guessing that the nomads pretty much had several animals domesticated - atleast the cows, horses and dogs..

Jan 25, 2007 7:19 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

Farming needed lot more knowledge than rearing animals. I say this because, by virtue animals tend to move in groups. Early man would have needed less knowledge to do herdsmanship than to continually do farming in repetitive cycles.

Again all of these are IMHO category.

It would ahe still been a nomadic state of life. But when he got settled he would have mastered agriculture as well. And would have known the weather cycle and would have also started communication.

Jan 26, 2007 5:07 pm

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Bharat P

Yeah

Wonder who documented what plants to grow, which could be eaten and so on...not to mention thousands of recipies of how to cook and garnish the food...

Must have had a lot of time on their hands to figure all that out.

Bharat

Jan 26, 2007 6:00 pm

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Ganesh Ram

So does our veda or pre vedic text talk about food at all? If they do not, then how did the people in those periods, vedic and pre vedic period survive?

if we assume that the art of cultivation and the science of it as well, had been identified in pre vedic periods, then why is that we never had that documented somewhere?

From our epics we do know, Bheema was a good cook. But what was he capable of cooking. Was the rice / paddy same in all places? were they cultivated? Is there any instances in our epics that talk about agriculture in particular?

Jan 28, 2007 5:01 pm

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Bharat P

Yeah, Bhima was a good cook, but otherwise, looks like cooking was an art handed down from mother to daughter and never really written down.

But for the last 75 years, I guess it was handed down this way for the rest of the history we know, and nobody wrote in detail about it...

Bharat

Jan 30, 2007 3:42 pm

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Ganesh Ram

It is said the harappan culture had agriculture going. Since this culture is the known oldest upon earth, we could assume that food gathering (non agricultural methods)had more or less stopped.

I also read that the harappan ruins did not have any structure, that can be identified as a temple or a place of worship. Therefore it can also be assumed that the SD as we see it today did not exist then.

There also have seem to be an atheistic school "samkhya" around 100 BC or so,that existed which would mean that atheism was a part of the then SD.

Feb 03, 2007 9:44 pm

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Bharat P

Not sure which civilization was the oldest, though the harappan and egyptian civilizations both vie for that position, and both seemed to know about agriculture.

As regards the Harappan culture, they sure did have idols of the Devi, which also makes the Aryan invation theory fall flat on its face.

SD claims it is about 13 trillion years old (about the age of a Brahma - if you get down to the Yuga/Mahayuga/Kalpa calculations). Not sure how true this is, but compared to 13 trillion, 6000 years back seems like yesterday.

And yeah, Samkhya was and is very much a part of SD. Surprisingly, if you read any of the upanishads, most of them talk less/nothing about a God and more about the self. So that isnt much different from Samkhya.

Bharat

Feb 05, 2007 5:47 pm

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Ganesh Ram

Looking from what we know of the Earth and the time it took get it to a "livable" form, a huge number like 13 trillion theoritically seems to have some worth.

And yes 6000 years is yesterday on that timeline( probably not even that).

Could it be that the nomadic Aryans when they came into harappa brought their pagan dieties and tried to mix/match their beliefs to what the harappans had?

Feb 09, 2007 9:55 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

Yeah. That or were the Aryans already living in India, and someone came up with the theory?

Bharat

Private Reply to Gopal Dev

Feb 10, 2007 5:54 am

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Gopal Dev

Hi, it may seem a little abrupt that I'm suddenly springing up with an opinion.....I find the discussion interesting. It's that kind of a debate where you'd love to agree with both sides :)- for & against. Bharat, although I agree with your basic logic, may I point out one thing that I think may be a flaw in your reasoning. Agreed, time heals all wounds........but in your darkest moments if you're so overwhelmed by the mountain of difficulties that you can't wait any longer for time to heal, then some people give up & resort to taking their lives. Maybe the truth in what Salil says is faith can prevent that from happening. Ok, so there is nothing that may suggest devotion in the earliest scriptures, but " FAITH " is the point !! For you it could be FAITH that nature would solve all problems with time. For Salil it's FAITH in god. For everyone knows that if you just believe, it becomes a reality.

Feb 12, 2007 1:08 pm

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Ganesh Ram

Gopal, welcome to the debate. Well said. So how does someone say a particular FAITH is better than the others?

where is a scale that tips to oneside saying that is better?

Feb 12, 2007 5:17 pm

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Ganesh Ram

from webseter dictionary on what Faith (from the belief POV) is: FAITH almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof If we go with the above, we would clearly see that it is TIME that heals. FAITH only is a make-believe attribute of TIME that makes one think that the healing comes from their FAITH. But rather the healing comes from the passage of TIME.

Private Reply to Gopal Dev

Feb 13, 2007 3:33 pm

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Gopal Dev

Absolutely Ganesh ! Healing does occur with passage of time. But tell me, when you are under a state of extreme duress, who's to say what you might do during the PASSAGE of TIME ?? You might end up doing something untoward that actually worsens the current situation & set into motion more events for which you've got to reap worse things !!!! Or worse stil.....kill oneself ! And so, therein comes faith ! A belief that something would set things right & they do, don't they ? Regarding the line of faith to pursue, I'm reminded of Harivansh Rai Bachchan's ( Amitabh's dad )poem that says something to the effect of......if you come across a dozen paths & are wondering which one leads to your destination, just catch one path & you'll reach yours !!

Cheers.

Gopal.

Feb 13, 2007 5:27 pm

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Ganesh Ram

Well, I guess at the end of day one still needs FAITH. Like when I write that TIME will heal everything, it might look like I have FAITH in TIME. Because I do not know what the outcome would be, it is just that I expect there will be a conclusion.

But if I leave all my despair to some entity other than TIME. Where will be all the stimulii to get a resolution? Should I not be reminded of my backlogs? Won't that mean I have to revisit my problems at definite intervals to see where I am in solving them?

Feb 20, 2007 5:40 am

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Bharat P

What exactly is faith?

Bharat

Feb 20, 2007 3:34 pm

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Ganesh Ram

BP, and your point is?

Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

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Gyro

A book called "Proof of vedic culture's global existence" written by Stephen Knapp. Just thought of sharing. The cost of book $14.95. Glimpse of book have been put down in the following web site.

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/proof_of_vedic_culture's_global_existence.htm

Feb 22, 2007 5:20 pm

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Ganesh Ram

Gyro, looks like yet another ISKCON attempt. Carry on. To assume that sanskrit is an universal language from which other languages sprouted is a very ISKCONish and northish(pardon my northern friends) propaganda. For all what you know Tamil did not take its root in Sanskrit. Also like some reviewer had written, vedas never mentioned of gods of the present. There was no "idol/shaped form" worship.

Feb 23, 2007 4:51 am

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Gyro

Let it be. Just because ISCON let us not jump into conclusion that all are false claim. You read, analyse and debate yourself whether the contents are true or false. ( However, I am not follower of any hindu organisation). If there is any counter points for the proof mentioned in the book your are welcome to point out. Like for an example Tajmahal as Vedic temple. So far nobody has denied the facts with sound proof that it was not temple.

With regard to Tamil I have already clarified that Tanil have been classified under four categories - iyarcol, tiricol, ticaiccol, and vatacol. Valacol refers to words that have been taken from sanskrit.

Feb 25, 2007 11:32 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharat P

There is tons of info on Wikipedia on the origins of the Tamil language and of the origins of the script(s) used.

Bharat

Feb 26, 2007 5:13 pm

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Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
the problem I have is in comprehending and accepting texts people authoritatively write about certain things. before I discuss, I have not read thefull book, but read through all the reviews about the book in Amazon.com.

Writers from the ISCKON cult( not as demeaning as it sounds), seem to express their views by relating everything to KRSNA and extending the existence of the rest of the world to Him. When a view other than theirs is spoken they tend to find other reasons. A good example is the thread in ISCOWP( is that the correct organization), the organization that is against cow slaughter or eating beef. On the 100 uses, one of them has suggested that the dung in its purest form can be applied over the umbilical cord of a new born. For which there is a response that it should not be done. If you follow on that thread, you will how uncomfortable the original propnent of that item was. The person sidetracks by saying probably it is not as pure as what it should have been.

Just like what you have stated,I do not belong any cult or religion. In fact I am not for or against any religion, cult as long as I am allowed to opine on certain "facts" of that cult/ religion.

Feb 28, 2007 11:31 am

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Gyro

When christians relates everything to Jesus and Muslim relates to Allah what is wrong when one of Hindu organisation relates everything to Krishna?

Since you have quoted above cow organisation let me reproduce what I had posted in other network for better understanding of others.

----
Why Hindus treat the cow as holy?

The cow was considered as source of food. It eats the wastage of paddy and gives us useful milk. And the male cows - Bulls predominantly used in paddy field for cultivation purpose. Cow dung is one of the best known natural fertilizer which has helped Indian farmers to grow more crops. cow milk treated as substitute for mother's milk. Ghee was produced with cow milk. Agni resides in ghee and used in homams to grow the fire (agni) consistently. Agni means heat and heat means sun, the reason for the cause of human life. (When the temperature of sun decreases beyond particular level the world would freeze and that is the end of world. However it would take billions of years from now as identified by scientist. Even one die it is the heat that comes out from body first and merges with panchabootha). In those days the healthy cows produced excessive milks (sometimes the milk will even spill from cow�s nipple automatically) that was used for human purpose. So cow was indirect cause to bring health, wealth and therefore happiness to nation (like Kamadenu) like sun offers so much of energy to flourish.

The international society for Cow Protection (ISCOWP) - a non profit and educational organisation from USA points out 101 uses for cow dung & urine. Visit the following link to learn more.

http://www.iscowp.org/Discussions.htm

Infact other animals too have place in Hinduism - like elephant for Ganesha, Tiger for Manikantan (Iyappan), Lion for durga, Matsya -the fish, Kurma - the tortoise, Varaha - the boar, Narasimha the Man-Lion (Nara = man, simha = lion) in lord vishnu avtars and some as sign in astrological symbol. Snack around the neck of lord Shiva, Cock as flag symbol of lord Muruga and peacock as vahana, mouse with Ganesha etc. In many of our scriptures birds and animals have some role to play. Younger cow as Nandhi in lord shiva temples.

----

Whenever there is any advantage there will be few people who would say contradictory to that like purest form of cow dung should not be applied to umbilical cord of a new born.
The site points out the advange of cow dungs and does not advise to adhere all to our practical life when modern medicine are available. In village, people dilute cow's dung with water and use that solution to cover up the floor, this coating repels insects. Even homiyum (cow urine) spilled in the house to bring positive energy inside the house.

Eating in banana leaf is hygienic and has medicinal value that is tested over centuries. You would get opposed view for this too.

Living more natural & practical to the maximum possible extent was the way of SD followers then.

Gyro

Feb 28, 2007 1:10 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Who is a religious person?
A truly evolved 'religious' person is one, who has outgrown all religious bondages!

What is Faith?
Faith is what it is when the 'object of faith' and the 'subject in faith' no longer exist but a oneness prevails in absolute experience.

Faith is born in strength and not in weakness. Faith is an experience of realisation and not something that man clings on to in despair, at best in desperation man transfers his burden into a belief that releives him of his burden. The ideal path towards faith is not belief, thought it may at times be the starting point. The ideal path towards faith is Knowledge of the truth. But knowledge of the truth in itself is only the path, at the destination of the path, faith happens in the death of knowledge. In other words in the surrender of knowledge, faith is born. The surrender is again a moment of triumph and not one of weakness.

Cheers

Feb 28, 2007 1:40 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Beautifully scripted Bharath Cola.

One has to travel deep into the realms of "higher intelligence" to
comprehend the periphery of TRUTH in your message.

Like your style buddy!

Cheers,
Hari

P.S.: If anyone questions me "what exactly do you mean by higher intelligence?",
I'm gonna IGNORE that.

Feb 28, 2007 4:12 pm

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Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
first of all, I do not accept any religion that puts its faith on a single person. The reason could be because How I view what religion is.

My problem with relating to Krishna is what I know of him. I am just uncomfortable. I am not judging krishna here. All I am saying is I am unable to accept the theory of everything being krishna as I am with everything is Jesus or Allah.

IMO, the concept of vegetarianism came into existence only in those places where Jainism thrived. This was suited to what certain Hindu cults dealt with in their everyday life and therefore was added into hinduism.

When the cow is venerable why the Horse was not? Horse sacrifice is one of the things that had happened in Ashwamedha yAgA was it not?

Why are the silkworms not? We are ready to wear and make our gods wear silk taken by killing silkworms and taking their cocoons but do not treat silkworms venerable.Why?

We are ready to give honey to our gods as well as the source, the flower, and yet push the bees out of their home to extract the honey. Why?

We are ready to kill the rats and yet treat one of its cousins as a transport to one of the gods. Why?

In fact those who do the cross thread ceremony would see that the thread worn upon initiation has a Tiger skin. And yet tiger is put at par as a transport. Why?

Fish, Matsya as we know from the avatAr, was not forbidden from being a food for the common man. We know for sure from the stories of Ramayana, that there were people who at fish and gave that to Rama too.

IMO, many of our practices specifically religious ones came out of our symbiotic relationship with nature. Whichever group within a religion found it needs this relationship with certain aspects added it as a "rule" in the religion in their area. That is why we were ok with giving animal sacrifice in some hindu temples till late 1960s-1970s.

As for the Ayappa thingy, The phenomenon of Ayappa itself would have started around 1200 AD not before that. People of other religious faiths were coming into India. There might have been a need to protect Tiger population.

Feb 28, 2007 4:22 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

BC,
I would argue that Faith, as blind belief, comes out of weakness and sacre tactics.

Two examples for this would,
when a child does a mistake, the first thing in many tamil hindu family is,

umAchi kaNa kuthidum,

which transl;ates to

"the god will punch your eye"

When a kid wants to go for an exam or test, asking the god for making the exam easy is well known. If you see the Roman numerals in some temple walls, you would know what I mean.

with other religions, it is not different.

Now if Faith is oneness of the subject and Object of Faith then it becomes a homogenized mixture. Don't you think so. IMO, to separate the subject from the object and yet make a relationship(unnamed) is what is Faith.

Mar 01, 2007 6:49 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Bharath Cola

Ganesh,

I had earlier posted something else, but deleted it to clarify better with the below, on your argument.

The English word Faith has many meanings and 2 amongst them is 'belief' and 'conviction'.

What I mean by 'faith' is a derivative of 'conviction'

what you are arguing as faith is an associate of 'belief'.

Do dive deeper on this subject... I state that right from childhood, one develops belief based on dependence of its parents and the society it lives with. At that point of time, yes the belief is equivalent to its faith. But in the process of growing up, the child's independent will gets developed - where it chooses to act in cognizance of its earlier beliefs or against it, based on its own judgmental capabilities and by exercising its independent will.

its at this stage acquisition of knowledge becomes a parallel process and a host of its childhood beliefs either gets firmed up or redefined.

But beyond all these is the knowledge of the self, its a path some folks have chosen for life or show interest towards. The intensity of the need, gives birth to acquiring further knowledge from the outside world - spiritual leaders, teachers, books... the common means that�s available to all. Parallel to the process of acquiring these knowledge, man uses his own comprehension skills, assimilates his realizations and uses his own intellect to judge them upon to finally discriminate what he decides are the right understanding about the self. this process in itself is an enlightening one. but at the end of it all, he is still away from it.

Because all he knew until then was "known" to him.
what he wanted to further know, was "unknown" to him, which is also 'known' now.
but what remains unknowable to him will remain unknowable to him because it cannot be known with his intellect.. when he realizes it - he will drop the seeker in him and in that dropping of 'trying to know' - the unknowable reveals itself to him. in that revelation - faith is born.

its that point where man, realizes that the 'unknowable' is not something to be comprehended but something to be 'experienced'. The experience of which will happen if-and-only-if he drops all his knowledge. When you drop your knowledge, what remains is the experience. and in that the 'i' surrenders to the experience of the unknowable residing within the self.
There is the moment of truth, faith and strength as an experience for him!

I re-iterate, faith is born in strength and not weakness.

Hope I have done justice to your time reading this

cheers

Mar 01, 2007 10:58 am

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Gyro

Hey GR � Here are my answers to your questions:

first of all, I do not accept any religion that puts its faith on a single person. The reason could be because How I view what religion is.

~ ISKON is not religion. It is an organisation with some purpose. Pl. don't quote ISKON as religion and say that you do not accept any religion that puts its faith on a single person. Hinduism does not believe in single god. It comprises different concepts (like Dvaitham and Advaitham) for obvious reasons. Your statement conveys entirely different meaning that you would have faith only in Hinduism that has several gods and several concepts and not any other religion that follows single god.
-----
My problem with relating to Krishna is what I know of him. I am just uncomfortable. I am not judging krishna here. All I am saying is I am unable to accept the theory of everything being Krishna as I am with everything is Jesus or Allah.

~ The moment the name of Krishna is spelled my mind immediately thinks of Gita and Wisdom. But you think of His leela with wrong interpretation of adultery to it. However, if you are uncomfortable with lord Krishna wide ranges of god are worshiped in Hinduism and you choose any one of them that best suits to you. No god theory is also acceptable in Hinduism when one meticulously follows his karma. (Karma here means action and not the result of sin or virtue done during previous births).
----

IMO, the concept of vegetarianism came into existence only in those places where Jainism thrived. This was suited to what certain Hindu cults dealt with in their everyday life and therefore was added into Hinduism.

~ You can find the mention of Jainism in Srimad Bhagvatam. It follows the concept of advaidham. They too believe in idol worship. You go to any Jain temple and ask what god they are praying in the form of idol. They would say it is lord Krishna. So like Budhism, Jainism also have got core concepts from SD including vegetarianism that is quoted as satvic food in SD. (we have discussed about this in detail in part II).

-----

When the cow is venerable why the Horse was not? Horse sacrifice is one of the things that had happened in Ashwamedha yAgA was it not?

~ When the cow is venerable why the donkey was not? Because cow was considered as source of food for the reasons mentioned by me above. A single cell grows as Man or Woman only because of food. So cow was respectable.

Pl. read about aswametha yagam from the following link:

http://www.chinnajeeyar.org/Teleupanyasam/Sri-Ramayanam/Sri-Ramayana-9.html

-----

(continuing)

Mar 01, 2007 11:21 am

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Gyro

Why are the silkworms not? We are ready to wear and make our gods wear silk taken by killing silkworms and taking their cocoons but do not treat silkworms venerable. Why?

~ Hinduism is the only religion that advice to see god in each and everything. Only in this you can find male god equivalent to female god like shiva & sakthi, Visnu & Lakshmi, Brahma & Saraswathi etc. In all other religions it is male god like Jesus, Allah, Buddha etc. This is the only religion in which animals; birds, insects have been given some part in our scriptures. Like bee creating hole and travels across the thigh of Karna in Mahabhratha. If god in pillars & pieces (thnunilum iruppan, thrumbilum iruppan) why not in silkworms? The very high funda of SD is to see every living creature as soul.

-----------

We are ready to give honey to our gods as well as the source, the flower, and yet push the bees out of their home to extract the honey. Why?

~ God accepts the hard work done by bee and when the honey is offered to lord the life of bee is fulfilled.

--------

We are ready to kill the rats and yet treat one of its cousins as a transport to one of the gods. Why?

~ Why rat alone, do we not kill snake (lord Shiva is always represented with Snake) if it comes to our house? There is different set of rules for different peoples in Hinduism. When King Janameyan killed thousands of snakes during Yagam it was not considered as sin whereas when an andhnar killed one snake he was punished. So, in order to protect our food not getting poisoned it is nothing wrong to kill rats. This is the practicality of Hinduism and that is the reason lord shiva carries thrisul even it is said that 'Anbe Sivam'.

-----

In fact those who do the cross thread ceremony would see that the thread worn upon initiation has a Tiger skin. And yet tiger is put at par as a transport. Why?

~ Lord shiva sits in tiger skin in meditation pose. In those days when kings kills tiger in forest to protect their country people, they would process the tiger skin and offer it to some sages who does penance. Even today when we do japam we use 'Tharpa Pai'. This is to get full benefit of meditation; otherwise the floor/land would attract all the benefit due to gravitational force and earth it.

Tiger is not symbolised at par as a transport. It showed the courageous act of lord Manikanda to offer Tiger milk to king to recover from stomach pain.

-----

Fish, Matsya as we know from the avatAr, was not forbidden from being a food for the common man. We know for sure from the stories of Ramayana, that there were people who at fish and gave that to Rama too.

~ Srimad Bhagavadam does not advise common man to eat fish or any other animals. Now Rama accepting fish from Gugan - This incident also proves that Ramayana is not a story. If it is a story this part would have not at all brought into picture. However, Rama accepted fish as token of love and not desire to eat fish.

-------
(continuing)

Mar 01, 2007 11:34 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Par

Gyro

IMO, many of our practices specifically religious ones came out of our symbiotic relationship with nature. Whichever group within a religion found it needs this relationship with certain aspects added it as a "rule" in the religion in their area. That is why we were ok with giving animal sacrifice in some hindu temples till late 1960s-1970s.

~ When Subhash Chandra Bose wanna start military it is most thevar community people who wish to become a part of his army. It is because they have the habit of sacrificing the animal to god. Means the cruelty, essential to fight & win opponents in war, was developed that way. Hinduism being very practical have realised that there should be group of people with that calibre and hence the animal sacrifice. There is a psychological reason behind this. A man who want to fight for his nation should develop cruelty and at the same time he should not feel committed sin. Therefore the animal was offered to god to protect his psycho and side by side to develop fearless mind. That is the reason even in school NCC the cadets would be asked to kill chicken by chopping its head with an empty hand.

------

As for the Ayappa thingy, The phenomenon of Ayappa itself would have started around 1200 AD not before that. People of other religious faiths were coming into India. There might have been a need to protect Tiger population.

~ Lord Iyyapa is the son of Mohini avtar. Lord Narayana took Mohini avatar during Dwapara yugam. We are approximately about 5000 years into the Kali yugam. And according to Srimad Bhagavata purana and other puranas Dwapara yugam is approximately about 864,000 years. So adding together it should have taken place much before 869,000 years from now. The reason for lord Iyappa is to kill an asuran and not to protect tiger population.

Gyro

Mar 01, 2007 12:21 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Par

Bharath Cola

Gyro : I am impressed with the energy and enthusiam of the efforts taken by you to share such vast imformation. N

Nevertheless, I am compelled to ask - is all what you are sharing - do you expect people to accept them as it is? Just because it is being told for ages as it is? Wouldnt the rational in the human mind question the ambiguity and inconsistancy in these theories?

Cheers
Bharath Cola

Mar 01, 2007 1:13 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Par

Gyro

Hey BC - come on, with the similar kind of energy and enthusiam all of us are sharing our informations since December 2005!

Not only me, even Hinduism does not expect people to accept them as it is. That is why Satsang is part of SD and all our Maharishis goes to foreign country and encourage even other religious people to question the concepts. When we read our scriptures it appears as if lots of info dealt in are controversial and hence provoke us to learn the core concept by questioning. It does not ask us to blindly follow what is being taught. This is the very rational approach. That is the reason going to temples or prayer to god are not made compulsory. SD respects the freedom of individual. The talk of atheism is not new. Even in purana muni Naradha would raise so many questions like an atheist. There is no ambiguity and inconsistency in SD. It is only in our mind and limited understanding.

Cheers.

Gyro

Mar 01, 2007 1:39 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Par

Bharath Cola

Gyro,

My understanding of SD is it never dwelled on GODs and GODDESS. SD I was told revolved about life and living. Whereas you say SD has all the tales of the 33 crores of gods and goddesses with its ambiquity.

I feel - the current crop of folks following hinduism with its gods and godesses may be a confused lot, mixing SD and the stories.

Cheers
Bharath Cola

Mar 01, 2007 3:54 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part II

Ganesh Ram

I will offer my side of the story for the other things later. But I was not wrong in saying the Horse was sacrificed.

Like I had said in my earlier post, one can always find an acceptible meaning for an action or an inaction that is being committed.

The reason for sacrificing the Horse, as I have heard elsewhere is this.

But before that, here is my understanding of ashwamedha yAga. The ashwamedha yAgA itself is done to move a king to an emperor status. What does this mean? A king who thinks that he is going to expand his jurisdiction, sends a proxy to all lands. The proxy is the white horse and is followed by a bandwagon of soldiers. Any rival king or anyone who attempts to capture the horse need to fight the soldiers accompanying. When after a year the horse returns back to the starting point, it means that wherever the horse travelled no one opposed its authority and thereby making the king to have occuppied that land.

When the horse returns, the yaga is done and the horse is sacrificed. The reason for this is the now EMPEROR does not want this horse to be captured at any time later.

One can give umpteen explanation in justifying the sacrifice. But what I do not understand is, tose who talk about a creator,kill/sacrifice that which is not created by humans for their personal ambitions.

I never took ISKCON as a religion. If you had seen my prev posts you will know that.

I never even thought of Krishna as an adullter(if there is such a word). In fact other than one or two posts where we did talk in length about his leelas, most of my arguments are based on his role in Mahabaratha. And even there, my point was he had his own misgivings as any other mortal and some portions of Gita when looked differently does not satisfy.

...more to come

Mar 01, 2007 4:27 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Par

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
why would a god who is present in you me and bee as well as in honey, honey comb need to be presented with the honey by a human and not by any other soul? Who are we(as a human being) to do this? Had the god thought that he/she/it should fulfill the life of bee , it can be done without our help, don't you think?

From your rat snake story, it is highly true that it is the social norms that tells what is right and what is not. Correct? the so called GOD has nothing to do with this, As the society changes over time and place, the acceptibles and the not acceptibles will change too.

If the god is everywhere then why not we sit directly on the floor to do the japam. After all one is in direct link to god when sitting on floor and doing japam rather than on a tharpai pai.

We are back into discussing Ramayana is a story are not.It is more difficult to accept as a reality than a story because the fact that Rama ate fish proves that Matsya avatAr was not something neither Rama nor Gugan was aware of.

...more to come

Mar 01, 2007 7:14 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

And the ayappa thingy, No it was not dwapara yugam. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't

The legend goes as Brahma gave Mahishi a boon and to stop her atrocities, the devas and others prayed to Shiva and vishnu. Vishnu came up with idea of becoming Mohini for yet another time so as to give birth to Ayappan.

Ayappan or Manikandan was found by this Raja who was issueless. The Raja ruled parts of Kerala during 1200 AD. Therefore Ayappa thingy is a very later phenom than dwapara yuga.

Mar 01, 2007 8:16 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part III

Ganesh Ram

BC, you did sound offended at least from my POV before you edited the post.

Mar 02, 2007 10:31 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Par

Gyro

Hey BC - May be you can try to correlate 33 crores of gods and goddesses with 100 billion galaxies approx that the universe consists as predicted by our scientists to have rought idea.

If you are the follower of SD and uncomfortable in this direction to believe crores of gods etc no problem at all. You have the right to choose your concept among various that is being practiced.

Mar 02, 2007 11:28 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dh

Gyro

GR � My replies to you.

---

"But what I do not understand is, tose who talk about a creator,kill/sacrifice that which is not created by humans for their personal ambitions"

~ If this is so why at all soldiers should be killed in war? Are the soldiers have been created by humans for their personal ambitions? This is the reason I said that there are different set of rules for different category of peoples in SD.

-----
"why would a god who is present in you me and bee as well as in honey, honey comb need................"

~ We become the mediator to bee to offer its hard earnings to god. When we do milk abishekam it is unpractical to think that cow have to directly enter into the place of main deity and pour its milk directly.

---

"From your rat snake story, it is highly true that it is the social norms that tells what is right and.........."

~ SD talks so much of social norms unlike other religions. That is why set of rules are different in SD for different category peoples. It provides the opportunity for rational thinking, analysing and questioning. Otherwise people won't be discussing about the concepts of SD centuries after centuries.

-----

"If the god is everywhere then why not we sit directly on the floor to do the japam..........."

~ If magnetic field is everywhere why the compass always point to North?

-------

"We are back into discussing Ramayana is a story are not.It is more difficult to accept as........."

~ If it is story would the writer of story spoil the reputation of supreme by narrating this incident so openly in the Ramayana?

------

"Ayappan or Manikandan was found by this Raja who was issueless. The Raja ruled parts of.........".

~ OK let me accept that Iyappa took birth during 1200 AD. But I wonder how you accept even this fact when you do not believe in GOD with physical shape. By briefing the story you obviously agree the presence of Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Devas, Mahishi, Mohini avtar and therefore Iyappa too.

--

Gyro

Mar 02, 2007 12:10 pm

re: Sanadhana Dh

Bharath Cola

Hi GR : Realising that my post seemed so is why i deleted it. To be offensive was not the intention.

Hi Gyro : Its not about what I want to follow. Its about what could be right. Thats my point.

Mar 02, 2007 3:05 pm

: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
your explanations are good to read. But read on.

First of all, sometimes(i guess we have gone through this before) you prove a point by agreeing with the opposite and . No that did not explain well, but I guess you understand.That is how the Ayappan story came into existence. It was to prove the point that the Mohini of the dwapara yugam was not the cause of birth of Ayappan. That does not mean that I accepted the existence in reality. I was trying to prove my knowledge of the story.

Like I have said before, I reply, opine to just the prev post unless I refer to an earlier.

For all what I know, Ramayana that we know of now is not by a single writer. We have adopted and adapted stories and logical reasoning as the society and social life deemed fit. The beauty of Ramayana and Mahabaratha, IMO, is that it so finely intertwined I mean the normal human life and the philosophical and elitist life.

The magnetic field rebuttal is excellent but is rather going in a tangent. I would say, like the compass will always point to the north wherever you are on earth, so will the japam reach the god however you perform. Again, I am not accepting the god here.I am trying to state the fact that there arises "no need" to follow things in a certain way.

I will agree with your SD discussion.

on the ashwamedha thingy, I should have been clear, I was talking about the Horse rather than the human soldier. The soldier has a choice but the horse has none.

on the Bee, thing, if everything is created by one then where does a middle man arise at all?

Mar 03, 2007 5:43 am

re: : re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

World renowned NASA has published the images, an archaeological proof of Bridge constructed by lord Ram between India & Srilanka.

please go through the following website in which the space pictures taken by NASA has published the images.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~lkawgw/adamsbridge.html

It points out that the bridge�s unique curvature and composition by age reveals that it is man made. The legends as well as Archeological studies reveal that the first signs of human inhabitants in Sri Lanka date back to the a primitive age, about 1,750,000 years ago and the bridge�s age is also almost equivalent.

-----

Now an important aspect to this:

Rameswaram, Jan 23: The dredging work of the Sethusamudram channel project has suffered a setback as the 107-tonne driller of the dredger broke while trying to cut the Ramar Sethu or Adams Bridge.

"The Ramar Sethu, it seems, is too strong for the Cutter-Sucker-Dredger-Aquarius (CSD Aquarius) that its 'spud' (driller) broke, while drilling the bridge and it is considered a major setback," a top official of the Sethusamudram Channel project told reporters.

"We are keeping our fingers crossed on the nature of damage suffered by the spud. If it is a vertical fracture, it would be impossible to repair. On the other hand, if it had cut into two we will be able to retrieve the spud and weld it," he added.

The official said they have requested the manufacturer to repair the spud, which would cost about Rs 2.5 crore.

If the Holland-based equipment manufacturer was unable to repair the spud, the project could suffer inordinate delay.

However, some officials were confident of repairing the spud within the time frame.

A floating crane, towed by TUG-7, arrived here today to help the engineers retrieve the spud for repair.

Repair work could be carried out only in Kochi shipyard.

As of now "not even a spoon of silt could be dredged", he said, adding the dredger-6 was remaining idle.

"The rent for the dredger also goes waste," he said.

Meanwhile, Muthudaian, executive engineer, SSCP, said the project work near Vedaranyam and Dhanushkodi was going on. An expert committee has come to Sethu to see the nature of damage suffered by spud, he said adding a Russian dredger is also coming to expedite the project.

So far, 1.40 lakh cubic feet of sand has been dredged, he said. (Agencies)
----

My question:

Normally the life of any civil construction is 100years if constructed in land. When the bridge if plunged into sea water for several thousand of years it would have corroded long long ago due to salt content of ocean water. If this is the case how come the Holland company could not demolish the bridge with highly sophisticated equipment carrying weight of 107 ton? More than that the equipment got broken into two pieces. How could this possible when Lord Rama constructed the bridge two yuga before (and not even two centuries)? What is reason for such powerful strength behind the bridge even today and what is the scientific explanation to this?

Mar 03, 2007 8:16 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

so wat if its an exaggerated sorry of a normal price?

Mar 03, 2007 8:31 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Hey BC - I did not get your point.

Mar 04, 2007 8:03 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

i think, i was trying to say

what if its an exaggerated story of a normal prince..

maybe i typed that sentence at about 1.45 am on my home PC in half sleep state :-)))

Cheers
Bharath Cola

Mar 05, 2007 2:46 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
first of all, NASA has distanced itself from this claim. Even Indian archeologists and historians have confirmed that it is naturally occuring structure.

Having said that, we do know that there was something called a KumariKandam that was supposed to be a huge landmass that extended till Australian. this has been talked in sangam literature.

Mar 05, 2007 5:56 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Hey BC - Why ordinary princes? There were powerful kings like Chandragupta, Asoka, Krishnadevaraya,Kaniskha, Samudragupta, Cheran, Chozan, Pandiyan etc. And we read about them in our history to an extent. Why they were not exaggerated like Rama and made epics like Gupthayanam, Ashokayanam etc. ?

If there was an intention to exaggerate ordinary prince Rama to lift to the height of god, he would have been never described or projected as an ordinary human being which Ramayana written by Valmiki does in so many places. It is clearly stated in Ramayana that lord Rama was aghast by looking at the personality of Vali and Ravana before fighting with them, just to cite an example. This honest approach itself reveals that the incidents have been given as it is.

Mar 05, 2007 6:08 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Hey GR,

Let us apply some common sense combined with science for the understanding of this bridge. At least you agree that this bridge have been occurred naturally means nobody denies the fact that there is bridge under ocean water. So, let me start from there.

1. Under what all condition this kind of natural bridge could happen in seawater?

a) We could see in the Indian seashore there is formation of soil like a Stone Mountain naturally. If this is the kind of natural formation in this case of adam's bridge, how could it have structure like a bridge for the length of nearly 30 KM that is exactly connecting from Indian coastal to Sri lankan coast?

b) What is so special about this place to form such a so lengthy stone formation in bridge structure and what is archaeological finding to this? Why not in other places in the same territory similar kinds of bridges were not formed?

c) All of a sudden this stone structure has been formed to the length of 30 km in the form of bridge 'naturally' way back around thousands of years before ???

d) In general the archaeological department would use carbon dating method to find the age of soil. What does it reveal about the age of this bridge?

2) Nearly 30 km length of bridge can't withstand firmly without any support. I mean pillar kind of structures to support the bridge. Without that how was it had life for thousands of years. (This number of years I have mentioned is not less than 3000 or 4000 years thinking from your point of view).

3) Why was it so difficult for an expert Holland company to break the naturally formed bridge? Before undertaking such contract a detailed study would be made and suitable method would be applied to complete the job. They would not simply take a chance when millions of dollar is involved in such contract.

When tomorrow the bridge is flatten, immediately all the media would flash the news that 'Ramar Bridge� have been knocked down. That time they won't write it as 'Natural Bridge�. We are living in such hypocritic world.

Mar 05, 2007 7:58 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Gyro : May be the exaggeration did not happen to all the names of the princes/kings you mentioned because they all are REAL!!!

Mar 05, 2007 8:05 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Is Sanandana Dharma a discussion on if Krishna/Rama existed? or is it a discussion on the best way to live our lives?

What is important? How to live our lives or how important if GOds did exist or not?

Why should we ponder if Ramayana or Mahabharata existed or not? If Jesus existed or not? if Allah existed or not?

Isnt it more prudent to ponder how the messages of Bhagavat Gita or Ramayana or Upanishads or Bible or Quran or any other way of life, can be applied to our lives for our better living.

I really wish to stir SD's discussion to application of knowledge/messages than to prove the existance of Krishna or Rama.

I firmly beleive SD's relavance will be more effective on application of knowledge/messages otherwise it will only be a fanatical discussion or at best an intellectual mast****ion.

Just my thoughts.. others neednt agree.

Cheers
Bharath

Mar 05, 2007 8:17 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

BC - Story means imagination and exaggeration is default in stories as it can travel length, breadth and depth to any degree. or it is real. So, What do you mean by exaggerated story? What I understand from the usage of this word is a real story of prince Rama is mixed with exaggerated caliber. Hence I gave the justification.

Just go 500 years back and imagine what was the facility available then and come back to normal life and see what all things we have today. You would see vast expansion of technology or an exaggerated life. When we all could believe this why not can we travel back little longer and believe incidents narrated in our epics? As I said earlier our brain is formatted in such a way right from the beginning that whatever science we studied (Westerner scientific truths) in our school and college days are only real and Eastern way of science and its achievements are stupid.

Mar 05, 2007 9:22 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Suppose we do not discuss the existence of Ramayana or Mahabhratha or Lord Rama or Krishna, a question would definitely arise as who has delivered or written the scripture - Gita. Valmiki has written Ramayana in the same period when lord Rama lived. If not Rama then someone has to prove the existence of Valmiki who lived in Theratha Yuga even to consider that as story. Similarly for Gita, Maharishi Vyasa's presence to be acknowledged if do not believe in the reincarnation of lord Krishna. With the present ideology it is not at all possible to prove the life of both gods or Valmiki or Vyas maharishi. But at the same time how could one simply take the messages without knowing the source of it, be it Gita or Kandams of Ramayana. That too present science says that the Homo sapiens can never be found during those yugas. So it would appear as if somebody has written all these very recently (some 3000 years before and again we would left out with no answer who is that �somebody�?)

Before Jesus many was nailed to cross. Why they were not treated as god? Because the resurrection happened only to Jesus and whole Christianity today is because of Jesus's rebirth. So not only the messages but also the messenger plays equal role here.

Mar 05, 2007 9:37 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Gyro : Correction! Story by itself does not mean exaggeration. It means narration of history and narration of a fairy-tale, amongst others.

So when I say exaggerated story - it could simply mean that a real one has been glorified and hence its name. Hope it clarifies.

You want me to travel 500 years back to beleive today's reality. What is so difficult to accept these 500 yrs.. afterall its recorded and given to us all these years. So its easy to accept.

I had visited Egypt a few years back - there, they have recorded history of 5000 years ago on wall engravings, pyramids, papyrus notes. If Egyptians had developed to such a great extent 5000 years ago - then their actual evolution must have started many many years before that. But no where in that history did I even hear them mention about GOD and his wandering in egyptian soil 5000 yrs back. why?

Was the Indian gods, exclusively partial only to indians? infact 5000 yrs back there was no indian at all, isnt it, after all it was not INDIA as a country?

Why is is GOd based on geographical presence? Why isnt he the same to all the people in the world? Why should infact God be a Male? If females are the source of creation in all life forms, isnt it not common sense that even if god is there - it should be a female than a male?

ther are a million questions which reachs one's common sense on these blind followings... which will all lead to the logical conclusion that its all MAN-MADE.

Cheers
Bharat COla

Mar 05, 2007 9:59 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Gyro - U said that that people beleive in the messages of Jesus because he resurrected. Correct?

Thats the whole point which is under cover here. Jesus gave such wonderful messages on how to live life but the the sheer messages are not sufficient for common people to accept them? they need something to be in awe with, for them to take the messages. Sadly thats the state of the commoner. Hence Jesus was presented to the later lot with magical powers like healing the blind, walking on water and resurrecting... so that in awe atleast, people will follow his powerful messages of living life well.

The same thing applies to Krishna and Rama - simply by giving messages of life thru an ordinary manual, would not have yeilded the results - the sages who gave those stories, projected Krishna and Rama as Super Men and incarnations of another Super God called Vishnu.

Maybe thats why all the Matas and Swamis of the modern day also perform some small time magic to attract people to them - because proof of the pudding is in the following - resurrection is not the actual reason for jesus's followers. Its How jesus lived his life which is the reason for his followers. His powerful messages was the actual reason.

Mar 05, 2007 10:28 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Hello,

I have already written that Hinduism (SD) is the only religion where you can find female gods apart from male gods like Sakthi, Saraswathi, Lakshmi, Durga, Kali etc.

By explaining the meaning of exaggeration I think you accept the avtar of lord Rama (You wrote - So when I say exaggerated story - it could simply mean that a real one has been glorified and hence its name). This what I also meant if you read my previous post.

As SD was the only way of life it was common to all peoples.........ooops I have explained so many times about this when GR asked similar questions to me. Then Mughal invasion, british invasion.....Oh my god pl. read whole SD -Part 1 & Part 2 if time permits.

If you accept that Jesus was really lived in earth and therefore christianity existed - this is what I am also telling when you said that no need to beleive the existence of Jesus.

Mar 05, 2007 10:56 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Actually, what I mean is - I dont really care if the avtars of Rama, Krishna existed. What I really care is "this discussion of SD, should be more about how the messages of these learnings can be used in our lives for our own respective lives"

Jesus lived is recorded history, he preached is recorded history. I dont waste time to chk if he came back to life or not. I dont waste time to prove krishna's and Rama's existance. Dont you think so its quite fanatical to spend time on those aspects.

Instead - I would prefer to live their messages, if possible. ITs worth the lifetime we live. That's my purpose of dwelling in this subject.

YOu always drag our discussion to why all the 33 crores of gods existed in different yugas and the likes, which i feel actually pulls the essence of intellectual discussion to blind beliefs.

and yes, my god - read whole of SD1 & 2, I have been talkign the same thing :-)

Cheers
Bharath Cola

Mar 05, 2007 4:00 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

While, agreeing with BC on what SD discussion is about, I cannot disagree with Gyro on why we need to discuss the epics.

My reason is most of the present day SD followers seem to be the folloers of Hindu religion that makes the two epics godly.

Now to Gyro's Rama's Bridge. Let us assume that the bridge was man made. Let us also assume that the bridge was built by the vanarAs.

What was Ravana doing at that time? Why was he silent? The story goes to say Ravana had fought Dasaratha in the interior of the now India. And fought dearly. He had visitied Mithila at the time of the swayamvara. So he knows where Mithala is. He had flown to the place and disguised and abducted Sita from the forest. Therefore he is technologically superior in transportation.He would have known about Vali's death,the only person, supposedly Ravana was afraid of.

Vibeeshana had come out of Lanka and landed at rama's feet. So Ravana would have known the mite and might of Rama's army. Ravana had seen Hanuman.

First of all for a great person like Ravana, to be keeping quiet watching a war coming unto to him seems unbelievable. Also, the whole epic if you see clandestinely degrades the shivaites and brings in the vaisnavites POV on the social lifestyle. No I am not talking in negative sense but rather pointing out the change in the society and the gain of vaishnavites form of lifestyle getting more importance.

If Ravana had the knowledge that a bridge is being built, and had he wanted to fight, he would have. For several reasons. Mainly, he was a terror and did not want anyone to win. The other reason is, as the story is told, Sita.

Remember, Rama till the last day did not know (had no knowledge) of how to kill Ravana. It was vibeeshana who gave out the secret.

How is all of the above related to Rama's bridge? the very reason that Ravana did not do anything when it was being built clearly states that there was no such a thing as a man made bridge and that too as stated in Ramayana.

If it had been really built, then we should research the sangam literature for any mention of this. Why because the sangam conference supposedly have been occuring near the so called bridge.

Mar 05, 2007 5:29 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharat P

Interesting conclusions Ganesh.

In fact, many years back I read a piece on how unrealistic it was to believe "Srilanka" was the lanka of Ramayana...

And from the calculations/distances, what was confirmed was that Lanka was actually a place in the south indian ocean, more near antarctica... or possibly some other places - perhaps australia (which might have been connected directly to India - tectonic plates and all that)...

Let me try to dig that one out.. read it someplace on the net. But I am less likely to believe that Srilanka is the same as Lanka -> there is simply no evidence to suggest it is.

Of course, not that it matters ;-)

Cheers

Bharat

Mar 06, 2007 9:36 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

http://www.ezthemes.com/previews/e/earth20mwp.jpg

maybe this is how earth looked those yugas ago when india, srilanka and antartica along with africa, asia, europe, america, artic and australia - was all one mass of land :-)

I also have a pertinant doubt - did the sages of india and the likes of rama/krishna exist before the dinasaur times? because we seem to get fossils of dinasaurs which probably lived 10 million years ago, but with respect to human evolution in India Mohanjodaro & Harrappa is as far as archeologists have dug upto in the north and some dravidan civilisation in the south.

Why hasnt the archeologists chanced upon any of the items/fossils of fully developed humans of the rama and krishna avathar times?

leaves me wondering ...

Mar 06, 2007 10:18 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

GR - Your points and my views,

"Let us assume that the bridge was man made. Let us also assume that the bridge was built by the vanarAs..........."

- Why to assume that the bridge was man made? Either it is natural formation as described and told by archeologists or the army of vanaras built it. Only these two assumptions are possible to consider for our discussion. From where this man made built the bridge arise?

-------------

"What was Ravana doing at that time? Why was he silent? The story goes to say Ravana....................."

The Hanumar goes as am ambassador to Srilanka and informs to King Ravana that if he does not release Sita devi war would be declared under the head of lord Ram. So it is not that Ravana was not aware of it. He was well informed and it was also a general practice then to inform in advance before commencing war. But Ravana was over confident that nobody can touch him and hence insulted Hanumar. Ravana rejected Infact, any peace proposal. He thought that even Prahasta might not require to defeat Rama. He was such underestimating and he was not at all concern about the action being taken or planned by lord Rama.

And the bridge was constructed with the blessing of Varuna - the god of ocean, after lord Rama meditating so that the waves and the surface water is supported like a bridge is formed in land.
---------------

"First of all for a great person like Ravana, to be keeping quiet watching a war coming unto to him seems unbelievable. Also, the whole epic if you see clandestinely degrades the shivaites and brings............"

The same 'great person' only could not lift Shivadanush during suyamvaram that wat done by lord Rama.

After the war lord Rama WORSHIPS lord Shiva in Rameswaram to nullify the dhosa of killing Ravana. So, it is evident that Rama accepted lord Shiva as his god. Hence the lord of Rameswarm (Shivan in lingam) is called as RAMANATHAN (he..he..my name). That is shiva is Nathan(supreme) for Rama. So, where is the degrading of Shivaties here? Infact, from this incident we would know that Shivaties have been respected. However, I am happy to note that you believe in Shivasm (Shiva) and Vainavism (Vishnu) by quoting (wrongly) that Shivaities have been degraded in Ramayana. And you yourself have written in your post that he is a terror. How come killing of a terror would become degrading of Shivaties?

----------------

"How is all of the above related to Rama's bridge? the very reason that............."

Let us not relate anything to Rama's bridge. But going by some prediction you said that the bridge is natural formation. I have raised my question in my previous post only based on this for which no answer has been given. Which means people are ready to believe or accept blindly if science group says something and we call that as rational approach even they are not in position to provide any answers for logical questions. For me this is miracle :-)

Mar 06, 2007 1:03 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

BC - No one can any give any concrete proof when this kinda million/billion/trillion years quoted for anything. Only our logical thinking would help for better understanding. But we do this with western education and their way of thoughts and therefore the problem arises. (Even for Dinosaurs there are contradictions among scientists. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dino_qa.shtml )

Those who want physical evidence undeniably can follow the great Acharya Adi-Shankara by which one can come to conclusion what to follow.

The Great Acharya Adi-Shankara explained and systematized Philosophic Hinduism, Advaitha Vedantha. Utthara Mimamsa (Vedantha) Darshana of Vyasa became popular with the decline of the teaching of Purva Mimamsa. During this time the rise of popularity of Buddhism and Jainism were the main catalyst for the start of Sankara's Advitha philosophy and many of the Bhakthi schools. Pancharathra Samhithas, Shaiva Agamas and Tanthra manuals were popularized. By the year 800 AD, Buddhism and Jainism were on the decline in the South. Vaishnava Agamas and Sakthi Agamas also later became popular. The great commentaries by Sankara on Vedanta, Bhagavatha Purana and Devi Bhagavatham were written. Naalayira Prabhandam and Thiruvachagam were writen in Tamil as major religious works. Lalithadithya, Kumarila, Sages Gaudapada, Aadi-Shankara, Manickavasagar and Nammalwar belong to this age. This concludes the ancient period and this was the start of reforms through the various devotional schools of the Bhakthi period of Hindu religion. (This contents have been extracted from a website)

OR lecture delivered by Swami Vivekananda at Jaffna in 1897
http://www.ramakrishnamovement-srilanka.com/hindu/Hinduism%20Chart/compiled/scriptures-general/about-hinduism.htm

Mar 06, 2007 3:34 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
no.it is not that I forgot or missed that line where you questioned me on the Holland dredger. The reason for not answering is two. 1) I have to get hold of some text on the internet to read through an incident. 2) want of time.

I will put my rebuttal on the Holland thingy once I get enough material. If you have a link send it to me.

I tend to place my arguments by stating what is observed by many and then saying why I do not think that is so. Ravana being a terror is what people observe and identify the character with. And I do not.

If one reads about Ravana's rule, it is said, that people were living happily. This is even before the so called Rama Rajyam. Therefore he was a great ruler. It is said, that his father gave him all the knowledge to be invincible.

Throughout the epic, Shivaites have been downplayed, the very example is, a king who is not a shivaite breaking the bow given by Shiva. Then the war between Ravana and other kings of the north. But there should be some appease done and therefore the Rameswaram episode. Had Rama wanted to kill Ravana and had he known about the degree of piousness of Ravana in the Shivaite cult, shouldn't the Rameswaram episode had a precursor of Rama and Lakshmana asking for Shiva's permission to fight Rama. There is/was not. Here is a guy who asked his wife to get into the pyre to purify coming back to Rameswaram to do puja for what? What Dhosa? He killed a terror and won the war and completed what he went for. Had he felt that bad, he should have prayed when he (Rama) killed Sugriva. Sugriva did nothing to Rama.

Again, this does not mean I believe in Shiva and Vishnu. It is to state that the society which did not ask questions about a single entity (of all in one) started asking about the duality and that type of thinking (duality)started gaining momentum.

Mar 06, 2007 4:22 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Gyro - I find it contradicting when you state...

But we do this with western education and their way of thoughts and therefore the problem arises.
and
By the year 800 AD, Buddhism and Jainism were on the decline in the South

Because you are using the western education to refer date and time when u say 800 AD, but you refuse to beleive science. Science is treated as a western education to you when questions are raised on the subject that you dwell upon, at the same time, we also harp that science had its roots in India, The principle of coding in computers is best when used the principles of sanskrit... doesnt it sound contradicting?

one more thing...
You said Adi-shankara followed the steps of Buddisim, right? I havent ever heard of Buddha refering to GOD as an entity. Have u thougth of that?

Mar 06, 2007 5:05 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Read the lin,
" Had Rama wanted to kill Ravana and had he known about the degree of piousness of Ravana in the Shivaite cult, shouldn't the Rameswaram episode had a precursor of Rama and Lakshmana asking for Shiva's permission to fight Rama"
as,
Had Rama wanted to kill Ravana and had he known about the degree of piousness of Ravana in the Shivaite cult, shouldn't the Rameswaram episode had a precursor of Rama and Lakshmana asking for Shiva's permission to fight Ravana"

Mar 07, 2007 4:33 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

What are the laws of life? Does anyone here know some of them? Can we discuss one by one?

Cheers
Bharath Cola

Mar 07, 2007 7:05 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Hey BC, Now thats interesting!

Here's one for STARTERS:

Scriptural lessons not put into action are poison; a meal is poison to him who suffers from indigestion; a social gathering is poison to a poverty stricken person; and a young wife is poison to an aged man.

- Chanakya-Niti, Chapter 4, Verse 15.

Cheers,

Hari

Mar 07, 2007 7:17 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Sumanth Cidambi

Bharath Cola, Ganesh Ram, Mr. Ramanathan, et al...

Just saw these detailed posts after a very long time...

My opinion is that the name of the character or mythological hero or the backdrop of the story does not really matter. What is probably of use to us in our spiritual learning and upliftment is the characteristic or trait that these heroes etc (were said to) possess that we can emulate as well.

For example, Rama for nobility, Krishna for a fun filled care free attitude, Hanuman for devotion, Arjuna for steadfastness of purpose, Yudhisthira for truth, Bhishma for adherence to dharma. We can keep adding to this list endlessly.

It does not also matter whether one is a theist, atheist or agnostic. The traits above when emulated and practiced in accordance with our dharma will lead to our evolution into a more refined and evolved being.

I do not use the word "duty" or "religious duty" specifically because I believe those words to be very restrictive and not capturing the true meaning of dharma.

Bharath, also if I may, before we come to the laws of life themselves, I would humbly suggest we look at the traits (or powers) that we should aim develop within ourselves. When one practices these traits constantly such that they become our way of life, then I believe we will be acting in accordance with the laws of life themselves and progressing on the right path. This is the summarised wisdom of the vedic seers.

The discussion on the natural laws or what constitutes right dharma is contained in Bhishma's discourse to Yudhisthira in the Santi Parva of the Mahabharata.

Cheers
S

Mar 07, 2007 7:52 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Hi Cidambi

In fact my entire pursuit in this forum is to discuss the same. I dont mind either discussing the Laws of Life directly or the simplified/implied messages of the epics which eventually will lead to aligning on the same laws of life.

My recent posts hover around the above.

Cheers

Mar 07, 2007 10:01 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Sumanth,
agreed, But to accept the traits of the heroes we need to accept two thing in my opinion.
1)All of these heroes are just that. Heros of classic stories. They might have been based on real human traits( not of one but of many)
2)They had their own misgivings like any other human. But what stood the time is their overall trait.

Once we accept the above two, what you said becomes true. And that in my opinion is why these two epics stood the Time.

how do we identify what trait(s) one can follow in a lifetime? This in my opinion varies with the society one lives in. What is acceptible and what is not depends on the place and time one is in his/her lifetime.

for example, over here in Mass, gay marriage is acceptible and legal. It was not two years back but it is now. What is the result? People now are not discriminated because of their lifestyle. Will this stand Time? I do not know but it was not an acceptible form earlier but it is now.

The reason for giving the example is to show how, aspects of life like a contradictory lifestyle(still in some society) has become acceptible in some societies.

What is good or what is bad is defined more by Time and therefore is more of a perception rather than a "Static Rule".

Mar 07, 2007 10:44 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Very logical point from you GR.

I wish to share an anology here. Lets take any sport for that matter - say, cricket. This game is played in different climatic conditions and wickets and the batsman has to adapt to the respective condition.

In India, the ball keeps low and turns sharply, hence batsman have to use their feet extensively and play largely on the front foot. Good players of Spin will survive better in India.

In England the Ball will seam prodigiously due to its wickets and the english weather. Hence its still front foot game, but one should be playing with a straight bat and into the V of the batsman's crease.

Whereas in South Africa, there is tremendous lateral movement of the ball, hence batsman have to play square of the wicket and predominantly on the backfoot, mostly standing tall on their toes.

Now these are adapting to different conditions in different countries. But Cricket has certain basic rules - Batsmen cant use anything other than the BAT to play!
Batsmen have to stand inside the crease or else he can be stumpted.
there is only 22 yards of wicket across the world...

these rules and many such rules define the game's laws. the laws dont change, but how you play within the laws may change due to time, place or any relative parameter, the rules remain.

likewise - the laws of life are rules and non-negotiable. Understanding them and living life will yeald a better lifestyle for the one who adapts to it. Which is what I beleive is the essence of something as profound as SD.

Cheers

Mar 07, 2007 10:47 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Hi Hari,

Scriptural lessons not put into action are poison; a meal is poison to him who suffers from indigestion; a social gathering is poison to a poverty stricken person; and a young wife is poison to an aged man.

in the above statement, can u pls explain why scriptural lessons not put to action is poison? and why a social gather for a poverty person is poison?

Mar 07, 2007 12:11 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

GR,

Leaving aside Holland company failure in demolishing the bridge, I am more interested in formation of bridge natuarlly and geological inputs this regard. (Q � 1 a,b,c,d & 2 of my post Mar 05, 2007 1:08 am).

If you say that Shivaties have been downplayed by breaking the shivadanush, then I would say Ravana � a great shiva bhaktha is also equivally responsible for that. Because he also went to suyamwara and made attempts to break that shivadansh. He did not even respect that shivadanush being a great shiva baktha but Rama did before lift it and therefore he could break it. (Bakthi is important. That is the reason it is said that Hanumar could walk on seawater by chanting Rama�s name but when Rama did the same he could not). As Ravana did not respect the Shivadanush and also made severe attempt to break it he is the one who tried to put down Shivaties. Is this the way we wanted to discuss or argue??

Rama not only asked Sita to get into the pyre, even after that she was left in forest when pregnant. The great princes Lau & Kus took birth in forest. Ramayana did not hide these informations. Whoever taught about these incidents would deliberately hide the real reasons behind it to put its value down. It is because Rama is the king of country and he has to completely sacrifice his personal desires to protect the interest of public. ( I hope you remember the dialogues between dry cleaner and his wife). This shows the unselfish attitude of Rama. That is why he is great in that way. Whereas Ravana abducted others (Rama�s) wife. And he is great in your view vis-�-vis Rama !!

In respective epics the hero/heroine character would be highlighted. In Shiva puranam Shiva would be projected more prominently and in Ramayanam it is Rama. For political benefit people like DK would misinterpret it. Because they are the one saying that Rama is an Aryan and Ravana is Dravidan therefore we should try to support only Ravana at any cost. (I have already provided link that proved Aryan invasion theory wrong). They foolishly thought that �being against Brahmin� is �being against god� when there is no god portrayed as Brahmin. The prime god of Hinduism - Rama & Krishna were not Brahmins. They were Kshthriyas. Till today nobody know what caste is lord Shiva. If lord Brahma is Brahmin, then all Brahmins should worship only Brahma in temple. There is no such practice. Even this simple truth this DK people do not know. But we are adamant in believing in their foolish propagate. (Even the Gayathri mantra chanted by brahmins three time every day was given to the world by Raja rishi � A Kshtriya later became saint knows as Vishwamitra - a non-brahmin)

Rama & Lakshmana would have got permission from lord Shiva before fighting/killing Ravana IF Ravana had got approval from lord Shiva to abduct Sita :-)

Mar 07, 2007 12:46 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

BC - It is not because I wanted to use this 800 AD example, it is because you said unbelievable if something like the presence of Rama & Krishna happened millions of years before. Therefore for your convenient I gave you example of Adi Sankara & Swami Vivekannda whose presence can be accepted unarguably.

I never said that I am not the believer of Science. What I say is there are two sciences. One is Eastern science where mind and its power were demonstrated. And another one is western science. But we are ready to accept the outcome of western science undoubtfully. It is because we have studied only their experiments and achievements in our schools. So, before we know anything about mind power or the achievements of our ancient rishis we are already in a mindset.

Science teaches us that human beings are evolved from monkey. Have any one ever observed the evolution with their own eyes, about the process? Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, should we come to conclusion that there would be no truth in it? We have FAITH in research and we BELIEVE this. When this is possible for us to accept why can�t we believe certain information given in our scriptures is my question.

I did not deny the evolvation of human being from monkeys. Infact, Dasavadharam is based in this theory only, which starts from (fish) Machavadharam, (Ameba as per science). What I said is that no experiments were conducted in lab to prove that evolution, when such statement was delivered by Charles Darwin. It was based on the observation & assumption. ie BELIEF. Therefore I said I am having similar kind of belief in our ancients achievements too.

I do not understand how it become contradictory when it is said that the principle of coding in computers is best when used the principles of sanskrit. Suppose in one place I say Sanskrit in superior and in another place it is inferior then it is contradictory. It is praised that even much more in advance a flaw less language was developed that is even suitable to today�s modern world (Computers).

I have never said Adi-shankara followed the steps of Buddisim. I don�t know from where you get all these that are not said by me.

Mar 07, 2007 1:51 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Hi Gyro : your post stated "During this time the rise of popularity of Buddhism and Jainism were the main catalyst for the start of Sankara's Advitha philosophy and many of the Bhakthi schools"

The above statement indicates that the Start of Sankara's philosophy was guided by Buddhism and Jainism. Well thats what my understanding of english w.r.t catalyst broadly meant by your post.

No sweat, so pls do relax :-)

Now the only science I know is - it has to be proven. Eastern or Western doesnt matter.

Faith in research u say!
I beg to dissagree because, when research exist it results in proof or lack of it. We dont have faith in research, we acknowledge that research is proven and thereby accepted worldwide. If I take crocin tablet for a mild fever, its not out of faith. Its in the acknowledgement of the research that the tablet has proven to have worked for such a health disorder. I have recently explained what faith is, its too powerful a word to be used on such details.

By the way - I had asked, did Buddha's teachings refer to god? I dont think he did. Zen teachings in the eastern world also didnt. Sanadhana Dharma also didnt is my understanding... which is why I feel we are holding on to the path and not realising that the path is meant to reach a destination....

I still remember a teacher state.. meditation begins with calming one's mind from many thoughts to one and finally that one to NONE. Most of us, have many thougths on GOD only... when will it come to one, and then to NONE? Intersting challenge....

Mar 07, 2007 2:53 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Hi BC:

I'm someone who adores and blindly believes in our ancient scriptures. So, when you said Laws of Life, I quoted one which I remembered having read long time ago.

My interpretation of "Scriptural lessons when not put into practice is poison" is "you will be leading a pseudo sophisticated materialistic life if you don't practice scriptural lessons, which will only lead you into sorrow, grief and away from the path of truth n realisation". Hence its poison.

A poor guy attending a social gathering is a waste of VALUABLE TIME. A poor guy need NOT attend a social gathering like a ryze mixer, cos there are other pressing needs for his very survival. Hence its poison.

I seriously DONT understand why you asked me this question in the first place.

Cheers,
Hari

Mar 07, 2007 10:27 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
To say that there was a shivdanush and Ravana a great shiva baktha went to break it itself is a thin line of degradation. BTW, it is not the story that matters here but rather the writers' thoughts. And to gain momentum and show Ravana as a villain, stories and episodes have to be added as such.

Now on how the islets had formed, like I had said, we should research from the sangam literature for this rather than Ramayana. We should look at What sangamitra and others had to say.

Rama for all what we know of him, always listened to others and took action, an unknown in Kshatriya trait. He was a decision taker but not a decision maker. We see this right from the time he goes with viswamitra.

Sugriva doubts rama's strength. Not once but twice. Rama terribly misses the first time to kill Vali. The reason for that can be many. For a sharp shooter, killing vali the first time might not have been a problem but he did not. It could very well be a "tit" for "tat" for sugriva.

Had it not been for vibeeshana, rama could have never killed ravana. He could have won the war but killing ravana would not have happened.

Rama was a king, whatever he could have said will be accepted in his kingdom. And yet he made Sita go through the fire and sent her to the forest. Even Sita becomes upset after being sent to the forest that she never returns.

Like I said in my post to Sumanth, every hero had his misgivings. But their other traits stood the time.

Mar 08, 2007 5:21 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Hari,

I seriously asked you the questions because I didnt understand the 2 points in that statement..

Because I beleive, scriptual knowledge if aquired, but not practiced could at best be redundant knowledge.. was wondering why it would be poisonous, to extent it might affect the person.

Likewise, a poor guy might be poor due to social discrimination, hence a social gathering to fight for his human rights might help him. SO was wondering why it would be a poisonous experience.

hope it clarifies.

BTW - Yes, Do understand you posted it on my request and wanted to understand the posting.

Mar 08, 2007 6:41 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Hi BC - I think you have conveniently forgotten the first line of that post that starts as: "The Great Acharya Adi-Shankara explained and systematized Philosophic Hinduism, Advaitha Vedantha." Pl. read the complete post to get the actual meaning what is conveyed. May be it is my fault to assume that some basics of Hinduism is already known to researchers like you.

Adi Sankara sought out leaders of other schools, in order to engage them in debate that includes Buddhism and Jainism. As per the accepted philosophical tradition in India, such debates helped to establish a new philosopher. It was also traditional for the loser in the debate to become a disciple of the winner. The purpose is to establish right path for salvation. Therefore Adi Sanakara argued the concepts with scholars of other schools and established Advaitham.

Hinduism does not belong to any single prophet like other religions. This is the basic different. Please do not get confused with SD and Zen. Lord Budha do not want to form any religion under his principles. Because he realised that those principles would be applicable only to him. The teaching of Zen is very unpractical to apply in day-to-day life of common man. It communicates that we have to love each and everyone in the world. Can we love all terrorists in the world who are responsible for all atrocities in the world? Is this possible? NO. They have to be killed to protect innocent publics. That is the reason lord Shiva is portrayed always with thrisul even it said that 'Anbe Sivam'. This is practical approach. This thrisul is not for showcase purpose. It is to destroy the atrocities as last resort when love does not bring any fruitful result. Lord rama is always represented with Bow & arrow and Lord krishna with chakra, Lord Skandan with spear (eati), Durga, Kali etc all with some killing tools. Hinduism also preaches love but it also realises that not everyone can be treated with love and therefore the weapons.

Multiple gods ---> Single god ---> Formless god (Brahman). This I have explained in part I. There are different natures of men/women. And so it is natural that there are different ways of worshipping God. Among many gods one would choose a particular god like Shiva, Krishna, Durga, Rama, Vinayagar, Skandan etc and concentrate only to that god. Over a period of time that will get transferred to the ultimate concept of Brahman when they practice seriously. When this status is achieved that is called as Mukthi.

Yes, SD talks of god. Ramayana & Mahabharatha are considered as great Ithihas under SD. Sri Bhagavada Puranam and all other puranas also part of SD. It all talks of god prominently. The Vedas talks of Brahman � a formless god. The prime source.

Please keep continue to shoot your points. I am enjoying the discussion.

Mar 08, 2007 6:55 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

BC: One man's meat; another man's poison.

Who am I to question Chanakya Niti? ;)

Cheers,

Hari

Mar 08, 2007 6:56 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Hi GR - Why vibeeshana alone? Could Rama fought and won the war without Hanumar or the army of Vanaras or Lakshmana? It is the war strategy to get support from wherever possible. The same was applied by lord Rama going by Kshthriya dharma. (This similar kind of approach you can see in Mahabhratha too applied by both sides). Rama was a good listener and not a dictator. Interestingly you agree that Rama � the lord is projected as only taker � What more evidence one want than this for the honest approach in Ramayana that cite as proof that the incidents have been given as it is.

It was also painful for Rama to send Sita to forest. But he deserved to be good king. That was his first priority and being good husband was next to that. In too many places valmiki narrates the emotional part of Rama and his struggling to fight with enemies. Ramayana do not hide these. Yes, in stories villain character would be projected as you mention. But a great hero � worshiped as god � avtar of Vishnu would be projected weak openly? What was the difficulty for a storywriter to project Rama as more powerful then anybody else therefore he did not struggle at all to fight with anybody?

Can you please give me some info about Sangamithra.

Mar 08, 2007 8:05 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Gyro - I posted the question purely on the english dictionary meaning of catalyst. There was nothing particularly convenient rf otherwise.

I firmly believe that the great sages of the past belonging to this soil - have woven the entire plethora of Gods and Goddesses primarily for the well being and a social order for the common man who does not and will not be able to ever in his life understand Brahmin's significance until and unless the common man seeks salvation, which is largely impractical for him living in the society with his bonds and desires. Hence for the greater good of formulating a society of order and systematic upliftment of the society, these sages over centuries of existence of their kind, must have engaged in creating the innumerable number of Gods/Goddesses so that for years to come, the order is the society is maintained for fear and respect of the entire lot of these heavenly characters.

after having left this mass mega serial of gods built with all relevant qualities for the common man to imbibe from, these great sages have also left the truth untouched for the common man who is willing to find the real truth of the existential order or in simple words - the value of realizing the Brahmin. so who ever does proceed in the path of realizing the Brahmin does not need these plethora of gods/goddesses for his quest.

I am indeed perplexed that someone of your understanding of the true state of Brahmin would still spend time and effort in proving the existence of GOD in its many forms.

I also believe the original version of SD in its purest form did not talk about Gods/Goddesses. The derivatives of simplifying the essence of SD by these sages have resulted in the talk of all our epics, so that man gets the innumerable messages of SD in simplified but yet powerful story form. The story is not important is my humble belief, but its implied morals are. Hence my wondering of why discuss the path - when the path itself is meant to reach the destination. Especially by someone who understands the essence of the destination.

I cannot comment on why ZEN is not practical. Nor will I call Buddha 'lord" because i am given to understand essentially Buddha was against idol worship but today the irony is he himself is worshipped by idols. that�s the sad state of humanity at large. I was also told that when Buddha ultimately choose to leave his earthly existence - he called the 7 kings of the neighboring countries and informed them that he is leaving this planet for good and gave his last discourse to those kings in taking his messages into their kingdoms. Eventually when he did leave his body I believe that the 7 kings fought over the rights of Buddha�s body to do the last rites!! that is the state of our humans even when they lived that closely with an enlightened soul like Buddha even before his warm body could become cold.

in that sense, yes - its better for the common man to continue believing in the non-existent god in its many forms so that his morality is at least at check in fear of the unknown.

but for the ones seeking the higher - my humble belief is to seek the destination than dwell on the path.

just my thoughts!

Mar 08, 2007 10:24 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

OK BC - let me accept your concept that Indian sages were the factory of manufacturing Ithihas, Upanishads, Puranas, Gita & multiple gods. From your post what I understand is all four vedas are original SD and rest of everything are built-up stories for the benefit of public. Now I have only one question. Who has created those Vedas and how it got available to us?

Mar 08, 2007 12:05 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Gyro - The Vedas must have originated from predecessors of the same sages. The ones who realized the self initially, so to say. Their clan later are the ones who simplified it further. All these sages where the same enlightened ones like the most recently recorded � Buddha, Mahaveer, Jesus, Mohamed, Sankaracharia, Guru Govind and many others who came later. All of them are of the same kind is my understanding.

Mar 08, 2007 12:15 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

No BC, you should not give such vague answer like predecessors of the same sages offered Veda to world when you are very much confident about the original version of SD. Please tell me name of the saint � the predecessor of sages who offered Vedas to world and how it got delivered.

Mar 08, 2007 12:33 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Why Gyro, how does the name/names matter? Infact to me more than the author the contents of any book matters more.

2ndly, even if I give the names. how can it be verified? its all hear say right? its transfer of knowledge from the times where ther was probably no processed paper, which can even be preserved. so how does it really matter?

Moreover at the click of a button we can scan thru 1000s of internet sites to get those details. But who is to authenticate them?

I firmly beleive that the Vedas is actually the outcome of SaNaDaNa Dharma.

The Source is SaNaDaNa is my understanding...

which again was from the highly evolved and enlightened human beings (sages), who know how many thousand years ago... afterall, it was a oral tradition.

I infact firmly beleive that such wisdom on its initial origin should have been a collective effort of a group of sages than any ONE.

Mar 08, 2007 12:46 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Yes, it really matters for our discussion. BECAUSE THERE IS NO SAGES OR HUMAN BEINGS OFFERED/DELIVERED VEDAS TO WORLD. You check with any scholar or any website, this would be the outcome. The rishis have only heard those hymns by their meditative mind and consolidated it and communicated through verbal to their deciples. Nobody has created.

Mar 08, 2007 1:38 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

But Gyro - you wanted ONE name? why?

How different is my statement that the rishi's got it from they being enlightened is from your above statement?

Unless ofcourse you are saying that these vedas where already available to them from a GOD! Well in that case I will disagree :-)

Everything is man made... just that these men where enlightened and hence they where able to give it back to us. lets not forget MAN is a outcome of the very source, so he cannot be any less than the source itself.

Mar 08, 2007 1:53 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Sumanth Cidambi

Ganesh and Bharath

This is a very long post in response to your earlier posts that I just saw.

I agree with Ganesh that heroes also had their misgivings and we consciously choose to overlook them. However and do correct me if I understood it wrongly but I am understanding Ganesh's next line of thought to mean that the laws of life depend on the time (historical) and environment (society) we live in, which mould the degree of acceptability.

If my understanding of Ganesh's statement is then correct, I disagree with it. Ganesh seems to imply that society frames or interprets the laws of life to suit its peculiar circumstance at a point in time. My disagreement arises because I believe that such laws are immutable and eternal and do not bear any tinkering with i.e. when you attempt to change the law to suit your peculiar circumstance you are simply not following the natural law. Something similar to the tail wagging the dog.

Let me summarise something I read about natural law and man made laws written by Annie Besant which I believe is instructive here.

�Artificial laws i.e. man made laws are changeable; those who make them can alter them or repeal them. Natural laws are unchanging; they cannot be altered nor repealed, but lie in the nature of things.

Artificial laws are local, while natural are universal. The law in any country against robbery may be enforced by any penalty chosen by the legislator; sometimes the hand is cut off, sometimes the thief is sent to goal, sometimes he is hanged. Moreover, the infliction of the penalty is dependent on the discovery of the crime. A penalty which is variable and artificial, and which may be escaped, is obviously not causally related to the crime it punishes.

A natural law has no penalty, but one condition follows invariably on another; if a man steals, his nature becomes more thievish, the tendency to dishonesty is increased, and the difficulty of being honest becomes greater; this consequence works in every case, in all countries; and the knowledge or ignorance of others as to theft makes no difference in the consequence. A penalty which is local, variable and escapable is a sign that the law is artificial, and not natural.

A natural law is a sequence of conditions; such a condition being present, such another condition will invariably fellow. If you want to bring about condition No.2, you must find or make condition No.1, and then condition No.2 will follow as an invariable consequence. These sequences never vary when left to themselves, but if a new condition is introduced the succeeding condition will be altered.

The first condition is called the cause, the resulting condition the effect, and the same cause always brings about the same effect, provided no other cause is introduced; in the latter case, the effect is the resultant of both.�

An example of man made law will be the acceptance of a homo sexual relationship by society in Massachusetts and codifying it.

Bharath refers to law of life here. I prefer to call it the eternal law (just sounds a bit more mystical that�s all, hahahaha). This eternal law is beyond human imposed conditions i.e. it is not driven by society or environment, etc. Let me attempt to address Bharath�s initial query and continue as below.

When a condition in nature frustrates us, we try and use our intelligence to circumvent it. This is human tendency. A good example to my mind is the discovery of flight and the aeroplane. You can consider this to be something humans �discovered� to circumvent the natural law of gravity and then harnessed its potential. Therefore, I think that you can only interfere with a natural law of principle when you have sufficient knowledge of its working. You cannot annihilate any natural force, nor prevent it from acting but you can neutralize it or turn it aside temporarily, if you have at your command another sufficient opposite force.

All laws of nature are merely expressions of the divine nature. We live and move within them. They are not mandatory but they are forces which set up conditions within which we live. These forces work in us as well as outside of us. We can manipulate them temporarily but the power is more in understanding. The more we understand them, the more our intelligence unfolds. We become more and more a master or an effective practioner of natural law.

I will respond to Mr. Ramanathan's subsequent posts on the origins of Veda separately.

Cheers
S

Mar 08, 2007 2:00 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Sumanth Cidambi

Bharath

The crux of your message and query in all posts is well expressed. Let me add my two bits. Source and destination are one and the same.

Simply imagine you are now somewhere on a wheel that is turning slowly. The wheel started turning and you departed from the source (destination) sometime ago. No matter, you are heading to the source again by means of your spiritual practices or the laws of life, whatever you may call it. The more intense and focused your practice, the faster the wheel turns and brings you closer to the destination (source).

Cheers
S

Mar 08, 2007 2:21 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Sumanth Cidambi

Dear Mr. Ramanathan

Continuing this interesting discussion, I would like to add my thoughts.

You may recall I had separately mentioned to you about the composer sages of the Rig Veda. Your comment that these sages experienced it and communicated it verbally to people is very correct. They attained certain mystical and limitless experiences and then wrote about them in (what we think is) poetic form.

Bharath's comment in a subsequent post is extremely valid - the symbolism in the Veda was maintained carefully and hidden behind a veil of words and phrases by these composers. This ensured two things

First, the simple disciple could practice spiritual discipline adhering to the physical meaning of the word and go about her/his daily duties as a daughter/son, wife/husband, mother/father, friend, employee, etc.

Second, an advanced practioner could pierce behind the physical meaning and attain the psychological significance of the Veda itself and thereby become steadfast in the supreme truth i.e. experiences the experience of the seers themselves.

I am also taking up on Bharath's point because I believe this is the intent of the Veda itself. The Rig Veda at 1.4.3 in praise of Indra, the divine mind, states as follows:

अथा ते अन्तमानां विद्याम सुमतीनाम् मा नो अति ख्य आ गहि

which is translated to mean "Then may we know a little more about your inner most right-thinkings, SHOW NOT BEYOND US, come to us".

The seer who composed this is clear in his thought. He prays to Indra asking the god to reveal himself only as far as the sage's vision permits. Otherwise, being of limited capacity (or mental faculties), the sage will not be able to understand or comprehend the messsage (experience).

The word "sumati" means "Lightness in thought accompanied by gladness and kindness in the soul". This is one of the preliminary goals that we are instructed to strive for, to get to experience "sumatinAm" i.e the state of such Lightness...

Cheers
S

Mar 08, 2007 2:59 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Sumanth,
I agree natural laws are immutable but they are flexible and preceptible based on the interpretation. Since interpretation is a trait of living things and depends on the knowledge or lack thereof, it is Time that determines how the laws are interpreted and followed.

I will continue with the homosexual marriage example I gave. In the Hindu pantheon of gods we have at least one instance of homosexuality and one of eunuchs that I know of which are cleverly disguised.

While the idea of homosexual marriage was there in our own India, it was twisted to satisfy the public. So is the accetance of eunuchs in our society. Of course I am talking about Ayappan and Ardhanareeswara here.

Then we can look at Polyandry and polygamy, Artifical births. Birth out of wedlock and the list goes on. Everything that a society practiced or shunned were/are part of our epics and historical stories. Some of them are justified and some are vehemently opposed. As Time passed, polyandry was totally unaccepted in many parts of India. Polygamy became a big NO NO.

If we follow the immutable static laws then we would end up without a civilization is my opinion, And this is not possible at all unless we tend to equate whatever incidents that happen to be Natural

Mar 08, 2007 4:52 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharat P

Doesnt polygamy have something to do with Victorian thinking? I remember the Hundu marriage law allowed 4 wives to every man before 1955 or something like that.

Bharat

Mar 08, 2007 5:10 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
first of all, Ravana was a southie rather than a dravidian. He was born to a Brahmin and a princess of the southern kindom. So he cannot be considered less Brahmin.

That too when compared to Rama, who was born to Kausalya and still be called Kshatriya. For all what we know, Rama is maternally Kshatriya, his paternal caste is unknown, while Ravana is a brahmin paternally and kshatriya maternally. This is if we base the caste on a genial hierarchy.

Assuming that Ravana did abduct Sita as he did with other girls and concubines of his. He did not touch Sita while she was in his kingdom. For a woman who went astray( in the sense she disobeyed what Lakshmana had said) she could have been made as whatever Ravana wanted. But he did not. She would have been there at least 3 months by our present time calculations. Doesn't that show his reasoning power? He waited for her to accept him. Something that is unknown of Ravana from valimiki's rendition.

Mar 08, 2007 5:12 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Sumanth Cidambi

Ganesh

I disagree with that viewpoint. A natural law is never flexible. You may change it or at best think you have succeeded in changing it to suit your circumstance.

Contrastingly, a natural law is never static either. It is quite dynamic because it rests on, among other principles, that of cause and effect.

Cheers
S

Mar 08, 2007 5:27 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Sumanth,
what in your view would be a natural Law?

Static and Dynamic aspects are highly debatable. Like I have said earlier (probably in the second and\or first part)it depends on which POV we take. Here is another example, For many of us the Sun is one huge ball of Fire. This is true looking at the SUN from where we are. But there are others who have found Sun Spots and we also have come to know of Sun flares and we know it has Hydrogen and there are countless nuclear reaction that takes place in it. We also know whatever we see as happening in sun with our naked eye has happened 8 earth seconds earlier.

where am I going with my example? I am trying to gain weight to my side of the argument that other than Time there are no Natural Laws. And by itself Static and Dynamic are based on Frame of Reference.

Mar 08, 2007 6:40 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Time to create SD part IV i guess.

Mar 09, 2007 2:24 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Sumanth Cidambi

Ganesh

As I had mentioned earlier and to quote Annie Besant who expressed it lucidly.

"Artificial laws i.e. man made laws are changeable; those who make them can alter them or repeal them. Natural laws are unchanging; they cannot be altered nor repealed, but lie in the nature of things."

By that logic, all laws of physics are natural laws - gravity, motion, pressure, etc. They are changeless regardless of the conditions of the experiment.

Another natural law is that of karma, which in a "scientific" sense is the the law of cause and effect, only this is wider than I can currently comprehend. I accept the premise that if I do good, I am impelled to continue doing good and the converse is also true. Our scriptures speak about this as well. The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad contains the following at 4.4.5

"Accordingly as one acts, accordingly as one behaves, so does he become. The doer of good becomes good, the doer of evil becomes evil. One becomes virtuous action, bad by bad action. Others however say that a person consists of desires. As is his desire, so is his will; as is his will, so is the deed he does, as is his deed, that he attains."

This is probably one premise for leading our lives in accordance with the natural law. Later date vedantic scripture i.e. Upanishads provided a guide and set down certain rules to lead life but I personally believe these were more ritual than religion (again taking my earlier example of comrehending and performing an act in accordance with its physical meaning as compared to its psychological or symbolic meaning).

Bharat, sorry to digress from your first set of questions but I will post my thoughts on laws of life later today.

Cheers
S

Mar 09, 2007 6:50 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Dear Sumanth - Thanks for your valuable inforamtions.

Hi BC - The vedas are not man made. However, I request Mr. Sumanth to provide some input on this.

Mar 09, 2007 10:33 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Sumanth Cidambi

Hello all

Again a slightly long post on the origins of Veda but it is difficult to compress some of these thoughts in a small post. Please excuse the length.

This is my understanding based on my study of what is written into the text of the Vedas themselves supplemented with currently popular opinion. I currently accept this line of reasoning unless I have more compelling proof of an alternative theory that suggests a different interpretation.

The Vedas are the only surviving records of the lives and expressions of our forefathers. The time horizon of their age is not agreed to with any degree of certainty. Western scholars usually date this anywhere between 4000 and 6000 years before christ. We ascribe an age beyond time to it, in the belief that they came into existence with creation and were later "discovered" by human beings.

Each and every mantra of the four Vedās was revealed to a human being, whom we simply refer to as a "rişhi" or "rişhikā" when he/she was in a superconscient state. In the Rig, Sāma and Atharva Veda, the names of the rişhis or rişhikās associated with the mantrās in the sūkta or hymn are listed in the heading along with the names of the metres associated with the mantrās and also the names of the associated cosmic powers.

It is also not correct to state that rişhis COMPOSED the mantra. The Rig Veda at 1.164.39 states that "the riks abide in an immutable supreme ether or "parame vyoman" where are seated all the Gods". The rişhi or rişhikā received the revelation of wisdom from this plane and transcribed it into verses or mantrās with appropriate words and metres. The process of transformation of the revelation into the verse is mentioned in many mantrās of Rig Veda.

Please also note my personal belief that the seers received this knowledge in a very pristine state of consciousness. Each of the seers or rishi/rishikās became types or symbols of certain spiritual experiences and victories that placed them side by side with a divine power. This veiled symbolism is something that you will encounter throughout the Veda.

At some period of their history, it was then found necessary to collect and compile all the available hymns current at that time. The necessity for the compilation arose primarily to prevent their loss with the passage of time and also to preserve them in the form in which they were chanted.

Here is where tradition and legend steps in. Vyāsa, son of Parashara Shaktyah [?] (one of the seers of the Rig Veda) is supposed to have taken the task of dividing the single collection of mantrās into four Samhitās i.e. each of the four Vedas. For all we know, he could have selected only a few 1000s of matras out of a larger available base of knowledge and compiled them into a form we recognise today.

The persons who carried out the compilation are Paila (Rigveda), Vaishampāyana (Yajurveda), Jaimini (Sāmaveda) and Sumantu (Atharvaveda). Vyāsa and these other four persons did not have revelations of any mantra. They are all simply compilers. Hence they are called kāndarşhis.

Hymns which were largely in the nature of prayers and dedications to Gods went to form the Rig Samhita.

Hymns which were particularly chanted during religious and social functions of the community became the Yajus Samhita. Also, there are no set metres for chanting the Yajus Samhita. This is similar to a continuing line of prose that you will find in a book, delineated by commas, periods and paragraphs for grammatical and visual ease.

Hymns that were specifically set to music and melody became the Saman Samhita.

The hymns dealing with spiritual and psychological topics, stages of life, health and physiology, professions and governance, mathematics and time among others were covered in the Atharva Samhita.

We can discuss the arrangement and structure of the Vedas themselves separately.

Hope this helps

Cheers
S

Mar 09, 2007 11:26 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Sumant � Well articulated explanations frm you!! To me Life is eternal. So in that sense..Laws of LIFE or ETERNAL Laws - both mean the same :-)

Gyro : We may at best find another species living in a different planet in another solar system� but never a god who gave anything to us :-)

Dear All,
I understand that the LAWs OF LIFE are absolute & It does not change. We as human beings may or may not work along with it, either by choice or by circumstances.

Does it affect our living if we dont align ourselves to the laws of life?
The answer is a BIG NO. We will still live our lives blissfully in our own capabilities and reap its benefits. But it may at times need MORE ENERGY/TIME/EFFORT (ETE) to force against the natural law to accomplish and perform an act when compared with working in tandem with the laws of life.

In which case, why at all adapt to the laws of life?
Well, there lies the answer - if we adapt to the laws of life and on top of it deploy our own capabilities then the results will be exponentially better from quantifiable or qualitative parameters.

To explain the above.. here are some examples.

Is Homosexual behaviour against the LAW if LIFE?
The answer is a Yes and a No.
It is No - Because by nature that's their biological definition and how can we say its deviant. That�s why I believe its not against their nature.
It is a YES - Because by nature, it needs a man and a woman to reproduce naturally and homosexuals will not either have a ovary or an uterus. Hence its an improbability to get children for them couple naturally. Thats where they fail in accordance with the laws of life in reproduction

Tomorrow science may develop to the extent that homosexual couples can also undergo operations to the extent of having an uterus and relevant changes for one of them to 'mother a child" so the couple can defy the law and still get what happens naturally - but wat happens here - there is more ETE spent - considering all the R&D of the Medical science to achieve such a break through sex change for a male to mother a child or a female to father one. The efforts are extraordinarily more.

Like wise � IN the Aeroplane/space ships case, man defied the natural law of gravity to fly. But for that Man had to spend more ETE to be able to do it. ALso - he disrupts other natural resources to achieve what is deviant from the normal law - fuel/ecosystem/ozone affects our earth eventually. IN the long run it may be detrimental to man's survival itself.

A simple law of life is gravity as mentioned above. If you get to a river and set sail in the direction of the river's flow - then your effort taken to reach the end of the destination in that direction is easier.. because river flows downstream towards the sea. ON the contrary if you set sail and go in the opposite direction, then the same needs relatively more ETE to sail against the current. Thats the difference between adapting to the laws of life or against it.

Because we all as human beings have a limited life span and in that given life span if we expend ETE against the laws of nature, we in our individual capacity will probably experience and achieve lesser results in comparison with expending the same quantum of ETE and also adapting with life�s laws.

Its man's own choice to do what he prefers - but human intellect needs such expression that he takes enormous amount of ENERGY/TIME/EFFORT to invent many a things against the laws of life - many of them may even be good for human beings and many others may not. But when he expresses his intellect with ETE in line with the laws of life, then all his expressions will be only GOOD for himself and human beings at large and with relatively lesser expenditure of ETE....

In a nut shell � probability of ill-effects are high when one works against laws of life. 100% immunization to ill-effects with one acts in accordance of laws of life.

The Vedas say - Least Effort can get Maximum results. The underlying message of this statement is - align to the laws of life, then with minimal efforts you get maximum results in what ever you do.

cheers

Mar 09, 2007 12:01 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

one of the most powerful law of life to adapt to, which is also very challenging to man is the "law of Impermanence"

If we can accept and internalise it - pain and the agony of loss of any kind will not unduly eat our life time/energy/effort.

Mar 09, 2007 12:24 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

Dear Sumanth - Thanks for the beautiful rationalisation on Vedas.

Dear GR - Who is Brahmin - discussed in our scriputres many places. It is very well articulated that the stuatus of brahmin does not come by birth. Knowledgewise (Vedic knowledge) both Rama & Ravana were equal. But Rama put that into practical life which Ravana did not. Therefore the difference in both.

Dear BC - This is for you. http://www.athayoga.info/articles/vedasintro.html

Mar 09, 2007 12:35 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

HAPPY WEEKEND TO ALL.

CHEERS!

Mar 09, 2007 6:19 pm

Sanadhana Dharma

Bharat P

Who is a Brahmin?

The word in Sanskrit is Braman I believe and Brahmam in Tamil..

And I remember an interesting statement ->
"Brahmavid Brahmo Bhavete"

One who knows Brahman is Brahman...

I leave that to your imagination. Have a nice weekend.

Bharat

Mar 10, 2007 2:15 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharath Cola

Pls initiate SD-Part4

Mar 10, 2007 8:17 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Bharat P

Yeah, Thought it was Ram's do to initiate a new thread.. Ram.. Another one which hit 200 odd messages..

Start SD 4

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

Mar 11, 2007 4:41 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Basab Ghosh

Have you guys ever considered that Eric Von daniken's theory may have some truth in it after all!

The Gods may be Aliens technologically and behaviourally far advanced than mankind and the chariots space ships.

That will then make our desire for space travel quite a natural phenomenon.

Mar 12, 2007 6:41 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Gyro

BP, GR, BC - Hinduism is Ocean. I feel that whatever I know a little drop of that ocean is aready communicated by me in part I, II & III. In part III itselt I had to repeat some info that was already told in Part I & II. So, any one of you start part IV and discuss.

OR

Sumanth Cidambi can give us some valuable lessons from Vedas in part IV - like arrangement and structure of the Vedas if Sumanth wishes.

Cheers!

Mar 12, 2007 3:23 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma

Ganesh Ram

Let me take the initiative Please continue your discussion here. It is easy to scroll that way. Thanks Ganesh