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| The Truth Seekers Network is not currently active and cannot accept new posts | ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | Views: 1186 | Mar 29, 2007 2:28 pm | | ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | -=Topper=- | |
It never changes you know, none of it. For the last few months the issue has
been the thought of the day. Outside of this insidious war that we can't do
anything about, other than revolution ( it's just a matter of time ), but we can
do something about each other.
It was a strange conversation at the Truth Seeker message board. We actually
lost some members during that spell. It was quite the spell as well. You really
learn something about people. Racism or racist are not terms that I banter about
loosely. But bigoted? You bet. I have never seen such bigotry in my life. And a
people so unaware that they are doing it. And those that were afraid of getting
involved because they would have bigoted themselves. Not that it would have been
the case, but it was the chance they didn't want to take.
But the answer from the white perspective is quite easy. The problems that
the black people have are of their own. Chris Rock, Bill Cosby, Oprah, they all
say it. That is another perspective, but a shared and wrong one.
It will and always should go back to white privilege and those in the
conversation and debate need to understand this, and are WHITE.
As stated before I work in a social environment, a grocery store. And have
acquaintances and regulars that I talk with. Recently a regular came in with a
new friend, I will call him Eric. Eric you see as far as my acquaintance
introduced him, is a successful angry black man. I recently caught, I'll call
him Tim, alone and asked why he thought Eric was angry. He shrugged the usual so
I had to push the subject along and asked about why he thought Eric was angry. I
suggested that Eric has had to claw his way where Tim and his friend has
had to for the most part, climb.
Tim suggests, like the mentioned Chris Rock, Bill Cosby and Oprah that it is
the fault of black people not to succeed.
How narrow minded that thinking is, how white privileged it is, how utterly
clueless it is.
It comes right back to the original thought process I had along this path,
that it is up to white people to let them. You see some white people have this
thinking that just because they do not see color that it some how leaves them
off the hook and it ends any further action on their part. They think now that
they alone have created some utopian society where color doesn't matter.
It comes down to this, for black people to succeed in this country it is up
to white people to let them. Give them the chances and see the color as a
description but not a definition.
That needs a clarification. "Let them" is a sarcasm. It has an air of white
privilege. It can be said that it is up to us as white people to let blacks
succeed.
Actually if you get that, you can now come to the head of the class.
It was in the debate that I suggested that those that do not see color that
they actually should. I suggested that a persons color describes them, it
doesn't define them. As an example, I am white, and my name is David Tobkin. Ok,
I described myself and also elaborated as to who I am. But you know what? As
logical that end, it was disagreed to.
Without being told, and in this white bread world, white is an assumption. "I
have a friend?", "I have a black friend". The clarification is a turn off by
most. And the butt of the joke against the conservative types. But still,
without meeting Eric, would I have assumed him to be black without much more
than a "my friend" from Tim? In truthfulness, and knowing Tim, probably not.
Black describes a person as much as being white, but it in no way says WHO
they are.
White people can be told that they will never understand the experiences
black people face. White people will question and debate, but never get into why
something is the way it is. It isn't racist to be that way, but it is shallow
and bigoted.
Why is the root of everything, and you have to go back to your childhood,
remember? You asked it all the time. Now that your an adult, that wisdom has
faded and you no longer ask it, well, WHY?
To paraphrase Shakespeare and the rose, a person is a person by any other
design, And we do not need to look beyond the color of the skin. As
stated, it is just a color.
I really do see "I don't see color" as a true cop out. If and when you hear
it my reader, cock your head, and form a question to this person. Get a
conversation going and bring it on! Need a boost, need an ice breaker? Need
simplicity? ok start with this, WHY.
Color is nothing to be afraid of even if the media says other wise. They see
color only too well, extort it, manipulate it, and exploit it.
I could ramble on with this in novel form. Race relations in the United
States as it pertains to black people is the study at hand. The research is
rather simple unfortunately, it is society. We have social reforms, "Affirmative
action", "No Child left behind" ( the photo op featured a black child ) etc,
etc. Many say we need to abolish these programs. I say no, what we need to
abolish and work on in this country for the benefit of all humanity really is
the social norms that make these programs necessary.
When we have done that, then maybe we have actually done something. Until
then, things will remain the same. It is up to us, the white privileged in this
society to bring this into being, and even YOU, oh yes YOU, have the
responsibility.
If you haven't turned away, if you haven't stopped reading, then I guess you
have taken the first step.
Check toppers-tap.com
for details.
Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Mar 29, 2007 4:27 pm | | re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | | As I said when I commented on your blog where you made this post originally, I can't believe all that I've come to start understanding since this whole thing began.
I say start understanding because in no way, shape, or form would I ever be so arrogant to say that I understand this issue completely. It's so way out of my league, and my skin color alone is enough proof that I will never understand it.
And really, maybe we're not supposed to understand it. That isn't the point. The point is awareness. The point is being conscious of the situation.
Conscious. A very telling word. A word you can't use in the same breath as, "I don't see color".
Great post my friend, and that is said beyond the contract. :-)
~Dani
Truth Seekers Podcast http://www.truthseekerscast.com Voicemail line: 206-337-1026 Skype: tsdiva Email: tsdiva@gmail.comPrivate Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Mar 29, 2007 4:57 pm | | re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Linda J. Alexander http://www.lindajalexander.net | | Topper:
An excellent post. To somewhat mirror what Dani said, I'm not sure "understanding" is something we can or ever will fully reach. I do believe that thru open communication & a deep sense of respect for the humanity in each of us we can come learn to be together, really be part of each other's lives, & speak as neighbors, friends, & even as brothers & sisters.
I don't think I've ever been part of something so richly rewarding as when I've stood in front of a group of mixed race people & spoken of my family background. Hearing in response the realities of folks who know it has helped me try to understand what it's like for them, & what it was like years before for THEIR ancestors--some of which are my ancestors--& that exchange of humanity is life-changing.
I commend Dani for this forum, where such things can be (hopefully) sanely & lovingly discussed, & you, Topper, for your thought-provoking truths.
That oft-repeated phrase, "The truth shall set you free" is overworn in some ways but refreshing & always the "light" of understanding for me . . . at least indicating a freedom in the sense of an attempt to better understand.
Blessings -- Linda
www.lindajalexander.net ** www.authorsden.com/lindajalexander HOLLYWOOD & POLITICS - http://hollywoodpolitics-network.ryze.com/ http://www.talk2bev.com/valentine/linda_alexander_maryland.htm Bev Mahone's '07 Valentine's Contest Essay Top 5 Winner!Private Reply to Linda J. Alexander http://www.lindajalexander.net | Mar 29, 2007 5:12 pm | | re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | L J | | Sadly it's also related to apartheid and its a military technique. Divide the masses and conquer them. Elites have been doing this by segmenting the population index as a whole. Look at the high schools each clique is separate, then further that all professions and professionals. Even in college the professors among fields don't share interests in other fields where minds should automatically meet. It's so sad. Private Reply to L J | Mar 30, 2007 1:40 am | | re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Tom | | Dave It goes against my better judgement to respond to this, but youve crossed a few lines, here. I think there are some things that need saying.
What strikes me as most ironic is the way you have responded to people over the past few months with the same narrow-mindedness and egocentricity that has probably played a huge role in the US being in the state its in, and having the international reputation that it does. And then to boot you refer to others as bigots. You say youve learned a lot about other people. I dont think youve listened to anyone long enough to learn a damned thing. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to listen for a change instead of just lecturing.
There are a lot of nations out there, and the US has set a pretty high standard for ineptitide in the racial-relations department. So, Im sure that some of the people who have left the network over this, as well as a number of non-American readers find laughable the idea of an American, especially a white American giving lectures on race relations. Sorry to be so blunt. I know that many people on this network want, and in their own way are working towards a better country. But it would probably help if the arrogance, as well as the verbal abuse was kept to a minimum. What could have been a series of very positive threads turned out to be something very negative, and you deserve a huge chunk of the blame.
Oh, yeahthis. Wow!
It comes down to this, for black people to succeed in this country it is up to white people to let them.
That pretty condescending. Private Reply to Tom | Mar 30, 2007 3:06 am | | re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Jenny | | You quoted out of context, Tom:
"That needs a clarification. "Let them" is a sarcasm. It has an air of white privilege. It can be said that it is up to us as white people to let blacks succeed.
Actually if you get that, you can now come to the head of the class."
I guess you're still at the back of the class.
JennyPrivate Reply to Jenny | Mar 30, 2007 4:20 am | | re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | | Hi Tom, Just a few thoughts of my own to add:
"What strikes me as most ironic is the way you have responded to people over the past few months with the same narrow-mindedness and egocentricity that has probably played a huge role in the US being in the state its in, and having the international reputation that it does. And then to boot you refer to others as bigots. You say you�ve learned a lot about other people. I don�t think you�ve listened to anyone long enough to learn a damned thing. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to listen for a change instead of just lecturing."
--Why is it narrow-minded to acknowledge a race problem that is not being solved, vs. ignoring it altogether? Even if you completely ignore (hehe) "social racism", (i.e. desegregation), there is no way to honestly deny that systemic racism indeed still exists in the United States today. It's so blatantly obvious, right down to how our neighborhoods and cities are divided. Dave has listened, same as I have listened, and here is what I think. To "not see color", to have everyone treated equally, that is what everyone wants. We all agree on that. But that is the ending, the result. We're not there yet, and by just saying it should be that way, doesn't magically MAKE it so. It's not based in any sort of reality.
"I know that many people on this network want, and in their own way are working towards a better country. But it would probably help if the arrogance, as well as the verbal abuse was kept to a minimum. What could have been a series of very positive threads turned out to be something very negative, and you deserve a huge chunk of the blame."
-- You are right, we are all working towards a better country. It doesn't seem arrogant to point out a problem. It seems arrogant to deny one, or to think that if we don't talk about the problem, it doesn't exist.
"So, I�m sure that some of the people who have left the network over this, as well as a number of non-American readers find laughable the idea of an American, especially a white American giving lectures on race relations."
-- I think it means those who may have left (and I can only think of one who actually left over this discussion), quite honestly, just don't understand. And again I don't claim to fully understand either. But I want to. After all, the things Dave has said, things that I have said, are along the same lines as great people such as MLK Jr. preached, and died for.
Why is that such a bad thing?
~DaniPrivate Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Mar 30, 2007 5:54 pm | | re: re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | -=Topper=- | |
Well Tom your judgment might have suited you better had you followed it. You
see there are certain people that agree with me on all of this. And they are not
anything like you, and furthermore do not share your color.
Be the problem Tom it is all the same to me I could really care less. I have
a bucket and a brush for your use.
As for my stance on white people, think what you will, but as you think of me
and my view on whites, well actually you would probably be right.
But you know, I look at my OWN KIND and pass judgment on them. It is actually
a fair thing to do, and as I looked at my own kind, I found the inadequacies in
myself.
It's an act of introspection, care to join me, or even us in it?
Check toppers-tap.com
for details.
Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Mar 30, 2007 6:27 pm | | re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | James Booth | | As I read this, Dave, I am thinking about all the voices that seem to have gone silent here recently.
Also reminds me that in another forum recently I was accused of being a bigot for asking about Zionism ...
Something which I quite expected.
"White Privilege" is alive and "prospering" ... and how do I shed that "privilege" ?
Though I shun it, it follows me ...
In my view, the more individuals who can and do succeed in this, or any, society - the wealthier the society.
The opposite I see as also true:
That anyone who holds back, holds separate, excludes, oppresses, divides, minimizes ...
... impoverishes their own society.
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Mar 30, 2007 6:33 pm | | re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | James Booth | | Tom said:
" ... the same narrow-mindedness and egocentricity that has probably played a huge role in the US being in the state its in, and having the international reputation that it does."
... and I ask: Are you and I not also "guilty" of that to some degree ?
I personally think Dave has a pretty good handle on the subject, if anyone does.
" ... the idea of an American, especially a white American giving lectures on race relations"
Where do we go from there, Tom ?
Shall we just ignore the issue - not talk about it - hope it will go away by itself ?
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Mar 30, 2007 7:33 pm | | re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Linda J. Alexander http://www.lindajalexander.net | | Hmmm. . . .
Regarding: " ... the idea of an American, especially a white American giving lectures on race relations"
Why should a white American NOT give lectures on race relations? Who better than a white American, at least one who is not afraid to look inward, to do exactly that & make an effort to acknowledge what needs to be acknowledged? As well as to offer a hand towards those who might otherwise consider that "white American" to be one who couldn't possibly, or who wouldn't possibly want to understand?
I may knock around w/it, & I may fumble, over & over, but I'm not afraid to stick my foot in my mouth if in taking it out I learn something important about my neighbors, any & all of them. And if I do that, why is it that I should not make the effort to share what I learn w/others--white & otherwise?
Blessings -- Linda
www.lindajalexander.net ** www.authorsden.com/lindajalexander HOLLYWOOD & POLITICS - http://hollywoodpolitics-network.ryze.com/ http://www.talk2bev.com/valentine/linda_alexander_maryland.htm Bev Mahone's '07 Valentine's Contest Essay Top 5 Winner!Private Reply to Linda J. Alexander http://www.lindajalexander.net | Mar 30, 2007 7:40 pm | | re: re: re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | L J | | Quote, "But you know, I look at my OWN KIND and pass judgment on them. It is actually a fair thing to do, and as I looked at my own kind, I found the inadequacies in myself.
It's an act of introspection, care to join me, or even us in it? "
Why do we think we are different when we are all the same group of human beings? Isn't this thinking non-altruistic? There are problems self-evident within all people's and groups across all divides of the population index. When you isolate and separate people, you give elites and oligarchs the advantage over the hard working peoples. Never forget the "New Deal," it was us against the Banks and Corporations then, and please tell me what has changed since then. Some things change , and some things never do.Private Reply to L J | Mar 30, 2007 11:20 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Jenny | | "There are problems self-evident within all people's and groups across all divides of the population index."
This is very true. The difference is, it is unacceptable to discuss what is happening within "white society" on this network.
It's perfectly acceptable to discuss immigration as it pertains to illegal Mexicans.
It's perfectly acceptable to discuss the "N" word as it pertains to black people.
It's perfectly acceptable to talk of "Islamic Radicals" as it pertains to Middle Easterners--and their presence in the U.S.
But to discuss the oppression of minorities by "white society" in the U.S. is taboo here.
All those wonderful threads Tom referred to were destroyed by "white" people who didn't want us to discuss this particular reality in the U.S.
So while we can discuss "problems" in every other "group" out there, it's not 'allowed' when it comes the dominant skin color.
Jenny
Private Reply to Jenny | Mar 31, 2007 12:18 am | | Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well--a different perspective | # | Audrey Yoeckel | | All during the recent fracas, I kept thinking how different my own perspective is from anything I was reading. It just takes a lot to explain so let me try to break this down and see if it's something others might be able to get behind:
1. I'm an artist. I LOVE color. I love to watch the way light reflects off of skin. Did you know that different colors behave differently between light and shadow? Did you know that colors reflect other colors? (The fashion rules about skin tones and what is most attractive on an individual--ie "I'm a spring, autumn, etc" exemplify this.) To me a world without color--where differences are not recognized--would be horribly dull. :)
Colors are fascinating!
2. The world is made up of many cultures and subcultures. Ebonics is a dialect of a subculture...so is low-deutch. As such, it is "worthy" (ahem--Ahh! the traps of our "Western" ;) culture). IMO, validation of a subculture erases all the ignorant criticisms that are used to paint them as "unworthy".
We run into the same garbage with music and style. Let each stand on its own. Nothing on Earth appeals to everybody, but it is all art. Creative self-expression is something I CAN understand.
3. 1 and 2 are both expressions of the physical and don't address anything to do with struggle, history or social inequities. That's ok. The idea is to appreciate and embrace superficial differences. But what about all that other stuff? Do I need to understand 100% the black (or yellow or red) experience to be able to address it? Not by a long shot.
Here's what I need to understand in order to express empathy:
Pain hurts. We've all experienced physical and/or emotional pain at one time or another. To recognize the experience of suffering in others is what's required to move forward. No judgments about it are necessary or even welcome. "My pain is greater/lesser than yours" type of statement is just plain SILLY!
Laws applied equally to all is necessary for social justice. I have rights the same as my neighbors, friends, countrymen, etc. ANYTHING else is injustice. Injustice that harms my neighbor harms me. Therefore, when I'm made aware of that harm, it's my job to work to fix it or it will come back to bite me. (See you don't even need to be empathic for this one. Even a strong sense of self-preservation will do.)
Simple.
Appreciation and validation are just as important (if not more) as understanding.
Recommended viewing: The Gods Must be Crazy.
Thoughts?
Private Reply to Audrey Yoeckel | Mar 31, 2007 3:02 am | | re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well--a different perspective | # | Tom | | Dave I have no problem with your views on whites. I have no problem with your views on racism. I have no problem with the people who agree with you. I agree with a lot of the stuff you say, myself.
What I have a problem with is your attacks...not even on the views of others, but attacks on them personally. You've labeled a number of people as bigots, and then you went a step further and insinuated bigotry of the people who didn't even post, almost by sheer virtue of the fact that they didn't post. Share my introspections? With which label would I be tagged if I did that? No thanks. But I have a few extrospections. Humans have a nasty habit of exerting power over one another in a constant struggle for dominance. Whites have been especially good at it, while blacks have been particularly vulnerable to it. This continues because the struggles for dominance are ongoing, and always will be in a capitalist (maybe not the right word, but you get the idea) system.
You mentioned that blacks cannot succeed until whites allow them to succeed. Come on. Thats not really succeeding, is it? Blacks only able to succeed because of the glorious benevolence of the whites who graciously cede privileges does not remove them from their quagmire that is that they do not have power over their own existence. IMO, they will not have such power until whites (lets face it, and others) get over their compulsive need for power.
Denigration (like when you stick a label on someone) is nothing but a weapon used in a struggle for dominance over someone else. Its why racial slurs are so dehumanizing. Its why I felt that your cavalier assignment of the label bigot was so far out of line. It also made me wonder if your attitude is so far beyond reproach that you can afford to be so disdainful of others. Does any attempt at dominance over someone else not, at least in some small way, fuel racism? A position at the head of the class may be a bit more difficult to achieve than you had thought.
As for my introspection, well, Im fully aware of how and why the cards are stacked in my favour. Its a much different phenomenon in Canada than it is in the US, but the fights for dominance occur up here, as well.
James asked me, where do we go from here? No, James, we dont stop discussions. We make sure that the discussions are of the nature that people want to participate (yes, I have not always been stellar in the way). Dave, youve provided a number of great posts, which Ive valued. But to be blunt, when I hit a belittling comment, I stopped reading, which makes introspection all the more difficult.
Do I care to join in? I have no interest in the mudfests that have been the entire months of January and February. Heated debate is one thing, but is a reason why there are a number of silent voices. Private Reply to Tom | Mar 31, 2007 11:58 am | | re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well--a different perspect | # | Jenny | | Okay, Tom, so if Dave said, of annonymous persons, "Their *views* are bigoted." You wouldn't have a problem with it?
How is your statement: "IMO, [blacks] will not have such power until whites (lets face it, and others) get over their compulsive need for power." Any different than "blacks cannot succeed unless white's allow them to."? Other than Dave was being sarcastic and you weren't?
"Heated debate is one thing, but is a reason why there are a number of silent voices."
Yes, and the reason for people to silence themselves is a personal choice. I, personally, would never silence myself--especially on a forum that has proven it allows "heated debate" from just about ANYONE. The only parameter is that the contributor is actually truth-seeking.
My guess is that those who've chosen to remain silent aren't interested in truth-seeking anymore. But that's just a guess.
The truth is, in the U.S., there IS a "white society" that practices *systemic* racism. That's the truth and it's a very simple one. But until people are no longer frightened to even acknowledge it exists, there is no way to discuss the ramifications and it's impact on our culture.
As Audrey so eloquently stated, it takes only empathy (or a sense of self-preservation) to be able to discuss this issue honestly and meaningfully.
I don't really understand what is so difficult about that.
Jenny
Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 01, 2007 1:43 am | | re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well--a different pers | # | L J | | You know it's funny that slogan, "There's a police man inside your head." I bet the media has been brainwashing encouraging bias and bigotry's of this version of police man for different human groups of the population index to flourish. I don't find it difficult to believe it's happening. I do find it funny that a lot of America don't realize the tautology they are fed from the media on a daily basis of what social normalcy entails. And not everyone can be as well adjusted with reason as say "keeping an open mind," as with don't judge the book by its color.
People use shortcuts all the time, but that's why Americans never apply themselves and live down their desires for true self. American's seem uncomfortable treading through unfamiliar territory and the unknown drives of fear manipulates the minds of the majority. Don't be too hard, but don't be over aggressive. We are all god's children some are just much wiser, social, and less selfish than others.Private Reply to L J | Apr 01, 2007 8:02 am | | re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Todd Morris | | Hi,
I think if we are honestly seeking the "truth" on this issue, the first step is to acknowledge that to some extent, both sides may have valid points.
I agree with the idea, that any white person who thinks there is not still a problem with racial discrimination in this country is to some extent ingnorant (either willfully, or just through wishful thinking).
That being said, to imply that this is *only* a "white problem" is also woefully unrealistic.
Human nature dictates that we ALL have preconceived ideas about life ... people, places, events, etc. Prejudice will always exist. And it's a trait inherent to EVERYBODY ... regardless of their skin color.
Once we acknowledge that we all have prejudices, we can start to examine Sterotypes, and how they affect society.
The simple fact is, not all white people are bigots, and not all black people are victims ... reality is a much more complicated mix.
Both segments of society need to work harder to dispell the stereotypes ...
White people should have no tolerance for racism ... whether subtle or overt. Peer pressure can be a strong influence for change. Our children are already much more tolerant of others than even we were ... and certainly more so than our parent's generation. I may be idealistic, but I'd like to think/hope that over time, it just won't be socially acceptable to hold racists views (it's unrealistic to think this is already the case).
On the flip side ...
People of color, need to listen to leaders like Bill Cosby, Chris Rock, Oprah, etc ...
Fair or unfair, most racial stereotypes are to some extent rooted in "reality". They don't necessarily represent the norm. But, there are segments within the society who continue perpetuate (through their actions) exactly what the other side chooses to believe. (this is true of white's as well)
Until those actions become unacceptable in black society, the stereotypes will continue exists ... and will unfairly effect well meaning people who just want to live their lives.
Just my opinion, Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 01, 2007 11:21 am | | re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | L J | | Are you overseas in Iraq Todd? If so thank you for your service. And and excellent comment otherwise notwithstanding he service. Private Reply to L J | Apr 01, 2007 12:51 pm | | re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Jenny | | So your saying, Todd, that black people have to become *better* people if they don't want to be stereotyped by racist Americans?
That's your argument?
And what part of "systemic racism in *white* society" as MLK spoke about soo often, as is still evidenced today, do you believe that black people need to be held responsible for?
I'd really like to know the answers to those questions. Seriously. Because when I've asked them in the past, of people that kept saying the same things you have, I never got an answer.
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 01, 2007 7:33 pm | | re: re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Todd Morris | | Hi Jenny,
No, that's not what I said. I never said that black people need to become "better". I said that ALL of us need to be responsible for creating the type of society we wish to live in.
White people should not tolerate racism. The stereotype of whites is that we're all "wink, wink" let's take care of our own, and screw the other guy. I don't deny this happens, and I don't deny that it happens among the powerful ... and it is a problem. However, I don't think I'm being idealistic in saying that the Majority of white people do not feel and act this way. One of the easiest ways for those of us in the majority to help make this better, is to call people on it when we see them perpetuating the "wink, wink" stereotype.
On the other side of the coin ...
I know for a fact that the majority of African Americans are Not drug dealers, criminals, welfare recipients, etc. But, fairly or not, that is the stereotype that certain closed minded segments of our society still hold. What the majority of the black community could be doing differently, is instead of blaming "racisim" for the Actions of that small minority who are acting innappropriately ... they should point their fingers at the Individuals who are CHOOSING to perpetuate the stereotype.
Just my opinion, Todd
p.s. please remember, I've lived my entire life in the most integrated segment of American society ... the US Military. So, I have seen (and had many long discussions) close up, and from both sides.Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 01, 2007 7:55 pm | | re: re: re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Jenny | | I'm trying to understand, Tom, what it is that you believe, so let me give it a shot here:
1) Racism (perpetuated against blacks) is from a very small minority of white people--and not systemic in the "white society" that governs the country.
2) Black people should stop pointing at the racists, and instead, point to drug dealers/criminals/thugs in their own culture so . . . the racists won't think that blacks are lazy, stupid, primitave, etc.
3) In order for black people to get equal wages, equal justice, equal "quality of life", we need to teach the small majority of white racists that their veiws are socially unacceptable.
Do I have it right?
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 01, 2007 8:02 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Jenny | | Sorry, typo, that should be:
3) In order for black people to get equal wages, equal justice, equal "quality of life", we need to teach the small minority of white racists that their veiws are socially unacceptable.
Again, sorry!
Jenny
Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 02, 2007 4:58 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Todd Morris | | Hi Jenny,
Ok, I'll answer your question with a couple of questions of my own ...
Do You honestly believe that the Majority of white people are racists?
How about black people ... do You believe that because someone happened to be born with dark skin, they bare NO personal responsibility for their own actions?
And what about the growing number of people who are of "mixed" race ... where do they fit in? Do they get to Choose which group they belong to? Are they "racist" when dealing with black people, and "oppressed" when dealing with whites?
I'm not really trying to be funny with the above paragraph. I'm just pointing out, that in the real world, things are almost always much more complicated than just trying to identify the "good guys" and the "bad guys".
Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 02, 2007 1:03 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: ISince I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here as well | # | Jenny | | *Sigh* See, I NEVER get any answers to those questions. That totally sucks. If I answer your questions, Todd, will you please, pretty please with sugar on top, answer the ones I asked of you?
"Do You honestly believe that the Majority of white people are racists?"
Yes, in one form or another--mostly unconsciously--but what worries me more, is the *systemic* racism that is ongoing and accepted blithely.
"How about black people ... do You believe that because someone happened to be born with dark skin, they bare NO personal responsibility for their own actions?"
No, everyone bears responsibility for their actions. I don't, however, believe that racism is based on actions, but on a sense of superiority based on skin color.
Black people aren't subjected to racism because of their actions, they're subjected to racism because of the color of their skin.
Black people don't behave in any way that is any different than white people. Yet they are discriminated against *BY WHITE SOCIETY* and white people who engage in those very same behaviors are not.
"And what about the growing number of people who are of "mixed" race ... where do they fit in? Do they get to Choose which group they belong to? Are they "racist" when dealing with black people, and "oppressed" when dealing with whites?"
The only ones who get to choose which group they belong to, are the ones who's skin color permits it. They, if they have lighter skin, can choose to enjoy the benefits of a living in a *white society*--such as equal justice, equal education, equal pay, equal housing, etc.
Racism is about skin color.
"I'm not really trying to be funny with the above paragraph. I'm just pointing out, that in the real world, things are almost always much more complicated than just trying to identify the "good guys" and the "bad guys"."
And what makes you believe that I'm boiling this down to "good guys" and "bad guys"? The whole picture is MUCH more complicated than that, but the truths are very simple. How we ended up where we are, how we acknowledge that, where we see it, and how we move past it, are where it gets tricky. But the truths themselves aren't difficult at all.
Now, would you please answer the questions I asked? Pretty please? :)
Jenny
Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 02, 2007 4:24 pm | | re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - policeman LJ | # | James Booth | | Americans are generally blind to "tautology" LJ ... perhaps reasonbly so since it is part of the "fabric" of our society.
"There's a police man inside your head." is a statement which has very different meanings to us as individuals.
Among the various "takes" on that line, for some of us it is a simple reminder regarding our own personal actions ...
... for others it is an ever-present external threat.
"keeping an open mind" is increasingly difficult in a struggle against organized murderers who hold themselves above the law.
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Apr 02, 2007 7:48 pm | | re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - policeman LJ | # | -=Topper=- | |
The thing I will never understand and the thing I brought into my post
originally with Tim and Eric, and that is how white people can think that the
problems that blacks in this country have, are somehow their fault.
It is illogical. Are the majority of white people racist? Maybe one should
ask instead if white people in the majority are bigoted against brown people.
To that, and keeping in mind the so called "Tim" in my story, this person
isn't racist by any stretch. But is he bigoted? Well, yes.
Bigot is the paint in which white people have a habit of painting themselves
into a corner with.
I have a view of whites. It is a pretty strait forward thought process. But I
think I know my own kind rather well.
I have a few in my blog roll that are black, and they do the same as I. Turn
an eye against their own with some critical thinking.
Critical thinking is really what it is all about.
That is the major hurdle that I am trying to get others to jump. "I don't see
color" isn't good enough. That's plain. And look at Tim in the story within.
He's a real person, and really thinks that black problems are their own.
What people do not comprehend that the statements reflect their own lives,
not the experience from the other side.
Check toppers-tap.com
for details.
Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Apr 03, 2007 4:56 am | | re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - policeman LJ | # | Todd Morris | | "Critical thinking is really what it is all about."
Hi Topper,
I totally agree with this statement. But, please remember critical thinking often requires that we let go of our need/desire to be "right". It's very hard to critically examine any issue when you automatically start from the assumtion that those on the other side must be full of shit (even if it later turns out that they were/are, you can't assume that from the start).
Oh, and Jenny, since you only asked me one question: "Do I have it right?" (the rest were just statements of Your interpretation of what I wrote), the simple answer is No, your statements are not an accurate representation of my thinking. But, do sincerely appreciate the nice way in which requested my response ... thank you ;-)
ToddPrivate Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 03, 2007 12:07 pm | | re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - policeman LJ | # | Jenny | | All right, since you're going to make me work hard to try to understand you instead of just engaging in the dialogue, could you please, pretty please, explain to me where I got it wrong?
Thank you.
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 04, 2007 5:51 am | | re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - policeman LJ | # | Todd Morris | | Hi Jenny,
Actually, I'm not going to call you "wrong". I believe that you and I just have a fundementally different outlook on life ...
I do believe that society has an obligation to help those who are less fortunate ... because, it's a good thing for the society as a whole ... it actually benefits Everyone in the long term.
However, I do not believe that society has an obligation to try to make life "fair" (for any given individual).
Fair is a moving target ... and therefore, unachievable (from a practical perspective) in the real world (on a large societal scale).
As far as this issue is concerned ...
Yes I believe, unfortunately there is still some institutional bias in our society when it comes to the subject of race.
However, for any given individual, I honestly believe that we all have unbounded opportunity ... regardless of the color of our skin, our economic background, our sexual orientation, our religious affiliation, etc, etc ..
For any of us, there are Choices ...
To pursue the opportunities that we have (no matter what the difficulties). Or, to complain about how unfair life is, and look for someone to blame.
In short, yes racism does exist (and always will, in some form or another ... it's human nature). However, I personally have little respect for any individual who chooses to let it hold them back.
For the record, I have just as little respect for people who feel that the color of thier skin, economic background, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc somehow makes them "better" than other people. (in the end, I believe that most people with this sort of false pride end up getting what they deserve).
That's my view ... I hope it explains a little better about where I'm coming from.
Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 04, 2007 8:58 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - policeman L | # | Audrey Yoeckel | | Hey Todd,
I appreciate where you're coming from with this. However:
"Yes I believe, unfortunately there is still some institutional bias in our society when it comes to the subject of race.
However, for any given individual, I honestly believe that we all have unbounded opportunity ... regardless of the color of our skin, our economic background, our sexual orientation, our religious affiliation, etc, etc .. "
This is simply a myth. The trouble is there is not unbounded opportunity for any given individual.
1. In a highly competitive society--which a capitalist system must be, there will always be losers. Those who have fewer resources to draw on have to work harder than their competitors and stand to lose a lot more than the opponent if they don't win--and more often than not, that's exactly what happens. 2. Institutional bias actively works to deny minorities opportunities. It has an increased success rates in recent years when most of our guarantees of an even playing field have been removed. 3. There are a lot more myths out there about so-called "opportunities" that will be very difficult to debunk if we ever hope to achieve a just society. Fair is not required, because life isn't fair. Justice however, is required. And a level playing field isn't too much to ask.
This is where the crux of the disagreement lies. I don't sense bias in what you understand to be true. It's just that most of "white" society have all these opinions formed on mythology.
Hope this helps.
Private Reply to Audrey Yoeckel | Apr 04, 2007 10:41 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - policem | # | Todd Morris | | "This is simply a myth. The trouble is there is not unbounded opportunity for any given individual."
Hi Audrey,
I suspect that this is a point where we will have to agree to disagree.
My opinions are formed based on my own life experiences. In both my military career, and my network marketing business; I've worked with, and/or known people, from a variety of different ethnic (and economic) backgrounds who are every bit as (and in many cases, more) successful than me (an American born white male).
I'm currently married to a woman who is Panamanian/Puerto Rican; with a relatively dark complexion. I don't view her (or our) chances of achieving anything she wants in life to be any less than that of my first wife, who happened to be white.
On an individual level, anybody can succeed.
I don't deny that some people may be faced with more (or more difficult) obstacles. But then, we're back to the issue of "fairness". And the reality is, there are a variety of reasons (skin color being one among many) that may be perceived to be causing peope to start from a "disadvantage".
How do you redress one individual's (or group's) issue without either ignoring, or possibly even shifting the burdens to, a different group or individual?
I'm not Black; so obviously, I have no idea what it's like to be black. However, my sense is that focusing on "unfairness" (and essentially that's what racism is), is almost always a no win proposition.
Which brings us back to Oprah and Bill Cosby. I don't think they would ever ignore white racism. However, by focusing on personal responsiblity within the black community, they are highlighting an area where individuals (and the group as a whole) have the greatest ability to make positive change happen (relatively quickly).
... we always have more control over our own actions, than the actions of others.
Just my opinion, Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 04, 2007 10:55 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - policem | # | -=Topper=- | |
However, for any given individual, I honestly believe that we all have
unbounded opportunity ... regardless of the color of our skin, our economic
background, our sexual orientation, our religious affiliation, etc, etc
In that utopian society, yes Todd all that is true, in a mythical utopian
society it is. Unbounded opportunities? I'd say "get real", but you would negate
that as an attack. Mythical, like Audrey has said.
The thinking is honorable, the reality anything but.
Women do not even get equal pay in this capitalistic corporate world, yet in
utopia they do. Blacks in this country have to claw to what ever level they want
to reach, in utopia, they climb like everyone else.
Really Todd have you met angry women and black people? You know I actually
dare to ask why, maybe at some point you should.
But then again you would, as you did at the liberal lounge, debate the
person, that it is their fault. Not exact, but the gist of it is still apparent.
I have critical thinking Todd, and I do not need to be right. And I don't
make assumptions, I make observations and base my thinking on that.
Read Tim and Eric, that is an observation and not an assumption. Eric is
indeed angry. Sure he has the opportunity, he works with Tim, but then again
within the confines of the work, still has to work that much harder than Tim.
Is it because of the color of his skin?
I make assumptions? Todd people make assumptions about Eric. And they base
the assumptions on color, even you have to know that. He works in real-estate. I
can gather what corners of this region which he has the most contacts, again
based on color. And that has even been in the news.
It's sad but it is the way it is. No utopian society in sight. Unbounded?
Limited works better. Isn't an absolute, but more accurate.
Check toppers-tap.com
for details.
Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Apr 04, 2007 11:04 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - pol | # | Todd Morris | | "But then again you would, as you did at the liberal lounge, debate the person, that it is their fault. Not exact, but the gist of it is still apparent."
Topper,
I believe you have me confused with someone else. I've never posted anything in the liberal lounge.
And, I would hope that those who have read my posts here on this network over the past year or two, would back me up when I say that it's never been my style to "debate the person"; as opposed to the issue.
ToddPrivate Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 04, 2007 11:29 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it here - | # | Jenny | | "Yes I believe, unfortunately there is still some institutional bias in our society when it comes to the subject of race."
THAT is a *real* issue in our country. THAT is what I've been trying to discuss.
What you believe (about opportunity, about fairness, about individual responsibility) are your opinions, theories, and thoughts about life. They are not facts.
Facts are:
Black people are incarcerated far greater than white people. This is injustice. It has nothing to do with being fair.
Black people statistically earn far less than white people, for the same work. This is injustice. It has nothing to do with being fair.
Black people face inequality in housing. This is injustice. It has nothing to do with being far.
And that's just for starters. These are facts. And they exist because of racism and discrimination.
This is the heart of the issue. Everything you've stated about Oprah, responsibility, black "culture" could just as easily apply to white people.
This isn't about black people, or how they behave, or whom they should role model, or what prescription for success they must follow.
This is about the injustice white society has meted out because of white society's inappropriate racism toward minorities.
Instead of telling a person they shouldn't allow a bully to hold them back, and hope that the less powerful can somehow surmount that which is *attempting* to hold them back, and then hope that the next less powerful person will be able to do the same, and then hope again, and again, isn't it much more responsible and productive to remove the bully?
See, I veiw anything that doesn't address the problem (white society's racism) as a way to shirk our resposnsibility to fix the problem.
So when white people suggest that black people must change, or behave any differently than white people, in order to have laws apply to them equally, to have equal pay, to have equal housing, that is not a fix to racism, but instead, encouragement to allow the racism to stand and *hope* that black people can surmount it.
That doesn't address racism.
When we discuss the racism of "white society"--it should BE about white society, not black people.
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 04, 2007 11:59 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post it he | # | Todd Morris | | "This is the heart of the issue. Everything you've stated about Oprah, responsibility, black "culture" could just as easily apply to white people."
I agree 100% ... and I don't believe I've written anything which would indicate otherwise.
"This is about the injustice white society has meted out because of white society's inappropriate racism toward minorities."
May I ask you two questions?
1) Why (in your opinion) is white society racist? I'm not looking for examples that racism exists, I agree it does exist. You stated in an earlier post that you believe that the Majority of white Americans are racists. I'm just wondering what you think the underlying cause of this white racism? Why do individual white people feel the need to discriminate against individual black people?
2) How whould you propose that this problem be solved? (I apologize if you've already answered this elsewhere)
Thanks, Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 04, 2007 12:48 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd post i | # | Jenny | | "1) Why (in your opinion) is white society racist? I'm not looking for examples that racism exists, I agree it does exist. You stated in an earlier post that you believe that the Majority of white Americans are racists. I'm just wondering what you think the underlying cause of this white racism?"
This is actually two questions, so I'm gonna respond seperately.
First, let me reiterate; I believe the majority of white people are *unconsciously* racist. I believe that when confronted with a common, societally held belief, they would see that this is inappropriate and "delete" that belief from their mind. In other words, it's not intentional.
As to the underlying cause.
A) Many white people only have the experience of television, news, and word-of-mouth when it comes to interacting on a private basis (as opposed to public) with black people. Unfortunately, much of that input is negative.
B) Since the abolishment of slavery and the civil rights act, the racism has become less overt, and more about morality. Affirmative action is seen as immoral, welfare is seen as immoral, etc. and it's all accompanied by the picture of minorities in the media as listed in A. The belief then translates to "black people want something for nothing." One only has to look at the arguments made against the survivors of Katrina to see this.
C) White people have been taught to fear black people. It wasn't that long ago that mixed marriages were illegal. And it's still a fear today that when black people move into a neighborhood, white people's property values will decline. This is, again, seen in our justice system where black people are disproportianately seen as a "threat to society" and need to be locked away. This is also a reason that the sentences for one type of cocaine are so much more harsh than for another. Because white people are afraid.
D) That fear, I believe, is borne from the knowledge that there is inequality in our system. Anyone who knows anything about the French revolution knows that when you oppress a portion of society, subject them to injustice, there will be a backlash. Yet instead of removing the oppression, which would mean admitting to fault, white society couches this problem in phrases like "personal responsibility", "positive thinking", "harboring the harms and hurts of the past", etc. This lets white society off the hook and makes them feel as if they are doing something good.
There is more--soooo much more--but I think that lays it our fairly well. Think of it like the Ghostbusters movie where the green slime in the sewer system is fed by the negative thoughts of the people above. They aren't *intentionally* feeding the slime, but that slime is still getting fed nonetheless.
"Why do individual white people feel the need to discriminate against individual black people?"
I don't believe that they see it as discrimination. They see it as protecting themselves. Such as the 100 hour rule for welfare. If you understand that black people are (and more severely in the past) unequally paid and kept from advancement by the "white society" network you alluded to above, then you understand that black people had a higher risk of becoming dependent on welfare.
As Regan so easily went on about the wholly mythological "Welfare Queen in her cadillac"--an overt illustration of a black woman, you can see that many people did (and still do) believe that welfare recipients are mostly black, especially in urban areas. (The statistics state otherwise, however--there are more white people on welfare than black people. Though black people as a percentage of all black people here, is higher.)
So when legislation was introduced to instill the 100 hour rule, it was because of people like Regan who were disgruntled that a black *man* wouldn't work, and instead, would sit back and take what he hadn't earned.
The 100 hour rule meant that a married couple couldn't recieve aid. It was either divorce and abandon your family so they could eat, or "go get educated" (and starve in the meantime.) If your kids needed medical help, you couldn't get federal aid for them if you stayed with your wife and child.
It was the system that created the problem that has led today to the belief that "Black daddy's don't stick around." The 100 hour rule went out with the old welfare system (AFDC) but it's lasting effects are still seen today.
So, individual white people aren't being racist on purpose, what they are doing however, is buying into the mythology they are fed by our leaders and media and then voting into power (Regan and the like) who will create the (racist) legislation that then discriminates disproportiantely against black people (like the mandatory sentencing for "crack" that isn't seen with the white-man's drug, "cocaine.")
"2) How whould you propose that this problem be solved? (I apologize if you've already answered this elsewhere)"
Well, the first step is to acknowledge it exists. The next step is to put the oneous where it belongs, with "white society." The third step is to harness the media to get the people behind the need to change the laws.
And individually:
Never let a discussion about systemic racism devolve into how black people should alter their behaviors to earn equality. They are born with equality, just like white people.
Never let a person say/do anything in your presence that furthers the mythology, which then infects other people with the mythology, which then translates into votes, which then translates into laws, which then translates into more systmeic racism. (Such as our government trying to repeal the voting rights act.)
Never allow anyone to blame black people for systemic racism in "white society."
That's how I see it.
Hope that helps :)
Jenny
Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 04, 2007 1:04 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I'd po | # | Jenny | | Oops, sorry, an addition:
The 100 hour rule applied to families (where the men stayed) only if they worked less than 100 hours a month. This meant that if they worked 101 hours per month they wouldn't get their food supplement for the month.
This in essence led to men leaving because if they went to live elsewhere, they could work as many hours they needed to advance in their jobs, to build a credible work history, etc.
The result of the 100 hour rule was to put a ceiling on the ability for those on welfare to advance in society, thus keeping them in a perpetual loop of poverty--for which "white society" blamed the "black man" for--instead of recognizing their own culpability.
Just to clarify :)
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 05, 2007 5:27 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I thought I' | # | Todd Morris | | Hi Jenny,
I was going to let you have the last word on this thread, but I do have one quick comment on this quote:
"Never let a discussion about systemic racism devolve into how black people should alter their behaviors to earn equality. They are born with equality, just like white people."
I think if you really read the posts I've written in this thread, it should be obvious that I am the one who believes that ALL people do have opportunity. You and Dave are the ones how have consistently argued that dark skin color MUST be a limiting factor, and/or that being white MUST be an advantage.
Regardless of group statistics, there are plenty of black people who have become tremendously successful. And by the same token, there are also plenty of white people who have been miserable failures. That leads me to believe that skin color Alone is not necessarily a determining factor when we're talking about outcomes. Individual actions/behavior must have Some impact.
Again, just my opinion.
Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 05, 2007 9:18 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I though | # | Audrey Yoeckel | | But that's not what they're saying at all, Todd. Maybe these misperceptions among us are what's getting in the way of real communication on the issue.
Please don't tell me that after several months worth of discussion here this is the conclusion you draw:
"You and Dave are the ones how have consistently argued that dark skin color MUST be a limiting factor, and/or that being white MUST be an advantage."
If that were true, why bother fighting for change? To think that would mean one thinks it's part of some sort of weird natural order...and both Jenny and Dave have made it quite clear they don't think that at all. There is no MUST in this. It is the way it is and we can change it.
Racism has been built into our laws and societal norms. All we're saying is that injustice needs to be eliminated. And kudos to Oprah...she's been blessed. She doesn't represent the level of difficulty faced by most minorities. Remember success happens when those around us allow it--often depending on whether they're active about it.
The multiracial military life which you hold as a model for us hasn't been integrated for all that long. That was a step that needed to be taken. All we're saying is, there are more steps in other areas that need to be taken too before we can declare it our society healthy and free of inequality.
"Regardless of group statistics, there are plenty of black people who have become tremendously successful. And by the same token, there are also plenty of white people who have been miserable failures. That leads me to believe that skin color Alone is not necessarily a determining factor when we're talking about outcomes. Individual actions/behavior must have Some impact."
But see, that's talking apples when the subject is oranges. Of course what your saying is true. But that's not about racism. That's about the grace of God as it applies to the law of cause and effect within the social dynamic. The two subjects are related in the same way that apples and oranges are a couple of fruits. :)
Private Reply to Audrey Yoeckel | Apr 05, 2007 11:31 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage I th | # | Todd Morris | | "Remember success happens when those around us allow it--often depending on whether they're active about it."
Hi Audrey,
This is the fundemental difference of opinion that we have. I do NOT believe that our ability to succeed is necessarily "allowed" or "disallowed" by others.
If you read back through my posts, I stated that I agree race can be an obstacle to success. But, it's not the only obstacle out there (there are obstacles for all of us, regardless of skin color) ... and it's by no means insurmountable.
I've never said that I don't think racism still exists.
My biggest problem with the argument being made by some here, is the idea that the burden of bringing about change rest purely on people who happened to have been born with caucasian skin. Attitudes on ALL sides need to change.
I personally resent the idea that I'm automatically assumed to be a racist (until proven otherwise) simply because my parents are white. I had no more choice in the color of my skin than a person who was born to African American parents.
I also reject the idea that only way black people as a group will achieve the kind of results that they want from life, is if white people "allow" them to. That in itself strikes me as a racist statement. And if black children grow up being taught to believe such utter BS, it's hardly surprising that as adults the only thing they'll be able to "see", is all the (white) people who are holding them back.
Just my opinion, Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 05, 2007 12:00 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage | # | Jenny | | Okay Todd, just exactly what attitude do black people need to change in order to gain justice in our legal system?
Explain that one to me.
Show me how black people have such bad attitudes that they're the ones forcing white society to pay them less.
Show me how black people have such bad attitudes, that they're the ones forcing white society to screw them on housing.
Show me all this. And then explain to me how changing that attitude will solve these problems.
Show me.
Don't sit back and give my psycho-babble about positive thinking.
Show me.
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 05, 2007 12:16 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontp | # | Jenny | | "My biggest problem with the argument being made by some here, is the idea that the burden of bringing about change rest purely on people who happened to have been born with caucasian skin."
Oh yeah, I already covered this, but because you didn't retain, I'll reiterate:
When we're talking about systemic racism in WHITE society, when we're talking about WHITE people and their unconscience racism, when we're talking about WHITE people using gross mythology to create legislation, then when we talk about the solution to that problem it has to BE about WHITE people.
Black people have no power over the racism being used against them. The change HAS to come from WHITE people.
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 05, 2007 1:42 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in fr | # | -=Topper=- | | It really is just so simple isn't it Jenny? It truly is just so simple.
Check toppers-tap.com
for details.
Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Apr 05, 2007 2:11 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this i | # | Jenny | | Yes, it is that simple Topper, which is why I truly don't understand where the disconnect is.
If a car has a clogged air filter, the owner's not going to bitch about the bad attitude of the altenator belt, or crab about the laziness of his high-performance oil, or tell the spark plugs they need to take personal responsibility for their sorry behavior. And he's certainly not going to hang out with the guys and tell them that the engine should be able to surmount any obstacle the air filter poses, or that if the water pump could just role model the battery, everything would run just fine.
He's going to change the air filter.
It's just that simple.
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 05, 2007 3:34 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontpage | # | Audrey Yoeckel | | "My biggest problem with the argument being made by some here, is the idea that the burden of bringing about change rest purely on people who happened to have been born with caucasian skin. Attitudes on ALL sides need to change.
I personally resent the idea that I'm automatically assumed to be a racist (until proven otherwise) simply because my parents are white. I had no more choice in the color of my skin than a person who was born to African American parents."
No. The burden of change is on all of us in general but particularly those who hold power, however, we are not talking about PERSONAL change when we talk about changing society.
My first post on this thread ( http://www.ryze.com/postdisplay.php?confid=1031&messageid=2499697 )was about how we can change attitude in order to see the flaws in our laws. But that isn't what I'm talking about now. You have no need to feel like anyone is blaming you for societies ills or implying that you're racist. It's the way our society is structured that Jenny particularly has been addressing.
Do you think the voting rights act, civil rights act, integration of the military, anti-lynching laws, etc, are good things? Well, all we're saying is the job isn't finished yet.
That is the orange.
"I also reject the idea that only way black people as a group will achieve the kind of results that they want from life, is if white people "allow" them to. That in itself strikes me as a racist statement. And if black children grow up being taught to believe such utter BS, it's hardly surprising that as adults the only thing they'll be able to "see", is all the (white) people who are holding them back."
That's not what I said.
Success is acheived through interaction in society. ANYONE who succeeds does not do it alone. There are factors in play. Aside from individual endeavors and ennate aptitude, the people who decide to hire you, promote you, educate you, invest in you and nurture you all contribute to your success. It CANNOT happen in a vacuum. Notice please, there is no mention of race in this statement.
That is the apple.
What part each of us plays in holding others back or moving them along is determined by our levels of awareness and knowing how much we are willing to do in one direction or another. Those who would oppress others based on the color of their skin are the racists.
Those who wouldn't do that are most likely not...though some may also not be interested in fixing any of the social injustices and no one is demanding they do anything. All we ask is that they be aware of and acknowledge that the problem exists. In other words, please don't judge the victims as "wrong" because of a lack of success.
Simple. Private Reply to Audrey Yoeckel | Apr 05, 2007 4:30 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in frontp | # | Todd Morris | | lol ... we're actually not all that far apart if you really read all the posts.
I'm gonna let you 3 have the last word though ... this could go on for days. (with no greater understanding gained by any of us).
ToddPrivate Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 05, 2007 4:39 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this in fr | # | Jenny | | So, in other words, you're simply going to bury your head in the sand and allow the systemic racism in white society to persist unchallenged.
Gee, why did you engage in this topic at all?
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 05, 2007 5:00 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had this i | # | Todd Morris | | Ugh, sucked in for one more post ...
No, Jenny, I sleep very well at night knowing that I'm doing my part to better our society.
(hint: to me, it's a long term process that starts with how we interact with our own friends, coworkers and neighbors ... and continues with the lessons we teach our children about interacting with others)
ToddPrivate Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 05, 2007 5:03 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still had th | # | Jenny | | Like believing that black people find "unacceptable" behaviors in their own culture acceptable?
That's how you're "bettering" the world? *SNORT*
C'mon, I've given you a pass on this crap because I had hoped we could have some intelligent discourse here that would prove enlightening, but you've proven that's impossible.
So yeah, bow out. That really is your best option now.
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 05, 2007 7:41 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Since I still ha | # | Todd Morris | | Jenny,
If you had pulled out a few quotes from my other posts in this thread, you would see that I believe in (and practice in my life) the idea that I am no better, or worse than anybody else, based purely on the color of my skin.
... and my kids, throughout their entire lives, have always had friends of from various ethnic, religious and economic backgrounds.
I don't deny (and don't think I have anywhere in this thread) that there is still a race problem in this country. I think that we mainly differ when it comes to how to make things better ...
I believe that it will happen one family and one relationship at a time.
As I see it, the thing I have the most control over, is to ensure that my children grow up without negative racial bias. And along those lines, I have a hard time seeing how it's wrong to teach them that I think anybody (regardless of the color of their skin) has the inherent ability to achieve anything they set their mind to.
Again, just my personal opinions
Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 06, 2007 6:49 am | | I am a privileged white girl | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | | Something I just posted on the Tap, thought it would fit here.
~Dani
I've had many mini-ephiphanies over the past couple of months for me on the subject
of race relations. I was introduced to author and anti-racism activist Tim Wise
through a member of the TS
message board, and friend, Bruce. I recently readWise's book,
"White
Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son",
and was completely blown away. It was not an easy book to read, not in the slightest.
Reading his story, and having experienced the same sorts of opposition to my viewpoints,
it felt good to know that I'm not the lone white person in the world who is starting
to get a better understanding of racism in the
United
States
.
Probably the biggest lesson I had to learn is that I don't know shit. Sure,
I had discovered a new awareness of the blatant racism that is still so prevalent
in this country. I found I had done nothing more than scratch the surface, not
even drawing blood. It wasn't even about racism, really. I was-am- learning
about the realities of white privilege. This is not an easy thing for anyone
to come to terms with, but what I worked out when I think about my own past and path,
is that 99%, if not 100%, of the reason I am where I am today, is because I'm a privileged
white person.
I didn't have the best of upbringings. Abused as a child, whole family broken
apart, ending up a ward of the state, in foster care. Sure, it was hard, emotionally.
Wouldn't wish what happened to me on anyone, and I'm real lucky I have come out of
it not having turned into a freaking loon. I've always had an open mind though, and
open to pretty much whatever comes my way. I took to therapy well. I was in
a shelter for all of three months, before moving in with my foster parents.
Three months. My time in the shelter was quite, well, privileged. A lot of security
measures were bent for me. I was still able to attend the same high school,
and take the public bus to school each day. They were not worried about me running
away. When we needed to attend the Boys and Girls Club for summer camp, I became
a volunteer counselor instead of just an attendee. I would like to think that this
is because I displayed a more level head than the other kids in the shelter, and was
the oldest (17) child there,but now I'm not so sure that was the only reason.
Three months. Then I moved into a foster home, where the family was licensed
just for me. Just. For. Me. I was all ready spending weekends with them before
I officially moved too. The whole situation was very lax. Even the final inspection
was a breeze, just a formality really. I know without a doubt now that it's
because of my skin color. I mean, come on! 17 year old white girl.
Doesn't smoke, doesn't drink (then, not now!), doesn't use drugs. Doesn't run
away from places, always followed the rules. Moving into a foster home where
there are two PhD holders, and two children heading off to major Universities.
In my new view, and the beauty of hindsight, I know without a doubt, things would
have been a whole lot worse if I had been a person of color.
Now, you might think I have some "white guilt" thing happening now. Really,
it's not a matter of feeling guilt. It is what it is. The key here is the awareness of
the dynamics of the situation. Obviously, I can't do anything about my skin
color. It would be pretty stupid to feel guilty about my skin color.After
all it's not like I had a choice in the assembly line. I do feel a sort of shame
towards my fellow white folk, when I see the ignorance that still reigns in this country.
Ignorance that, quite frankly, I think is purposeful. They want to remain
ignorant, in order to not have to face the problem at hand. Ignorance is bliss,
indeed.
Tim Wise led me to a whole new set of people who speak on the subject. Speak loudly,
I might add. This is one of the amazing things about the internet, and blogging.
In a sense, it breaks down barriers. Other than Wise, three other blogs that
have made my blogroll so I can track them are The
Angry Black Woman (LOVE her tag line!), The
Field Negro, and The
Free Slave.
Even more than Tim Wise, even more than any white person, these people have the right
to tell it as it is, and they do. Free Slave all ready gave me good thoughts about
whetherI
should vote for Barack Obama because he's black. There is another entry
he did recently that really made me think
and consider everything about who I am(GOD I love thinking!!):
Who are you?
What are you?
What is your primary identity?
What ethnic, racial, nation-state do you identify with?
Or do you identify with none at all?
Who am I? Well, that's easy. Danielle
Regina
Piwinski Cutler. What am I, my primary identity? I go back and forth on
that. Is my primary identity more woman, than white? I really don't know.
As for an ethnic identity, I know I am Polish. 100%. However, do I identify
with my ethnicity? No. I practice nothing that pertains to the Polish
heritage. I couldn't even tell you a Polish holiday, or a Polish ritual.
I know next to nothing about my heritage, other than I know that I am 4th generation
Polish-American. My great-grandparents were the first immigrants who came over
from
Poland
. Other than knowing a few words in Polish, and having a weakness for Perrogies
and Kabasa, telling people I'm Polish is nothing more than a word in terms of meaning.
Do you ever ask yourself who and what you are, who and what you are supposed to
be and whether you are being your truest self?
I don't. This is the very first time I really ever thought about it for any
significant amount of time. And by significant, I do not mean just in this entry,
tonight. This has been mulling around for a few months now, and what I'm learning
is that as someone who has no clue about her own heritage, I have no right to assume
I know anything about the heritage or the struggles of others.
But I want to learn. I want to understand. What studying race relations
in the
US
and white privilege has done for me, is made me more sensitive to things I do not
understand. Leveled the arrogance I had simply by being white. Arrogance
I didn't even know was there.
Perhaps by learning more about the history of things, and how they connect to the
present, we can all be more sensitive to these issues. Whether we understand them
or not.
Private Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Apr 06, 2007 3:23 pm | | re: I am a privileged white boy ... | # | James Booth | | National Vanguard Closes Shop Report; Posted on: 2007-03-23 00:21:51 [ Printer friendly / Instant flyer ] We regret to inform you that National Vanguard (the organization) has been shut down by the Commonwealth of Virginia.
We thank you for your loyal patronage over the years and hope our hard work has kept you informed and entertained while making a positive difference for our people. _______
Jew Says He is One of Us in Latest Book
In White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son, author Tim Wise sells White self-hatred, claiming White identity exists "to the detriment of people of color, themselves, and society."
No sooner does any campus skeptic of affirmative action peep the slightest dissent than the university administration schedules a talk by diversity's Big Gun: a pro-affirmative action White male who simultanously knows something about it. Yeah, right. It was too much for me to believe in 1999, when I gambled to guess there was more to this self-styled resentful White-privilege beneficiary. Sure enough, our flyer bluff worked, and Wise conceded his membership in the tribe that could hardly profit more from the systematic removal of White males from positions of power and influence. The man is a Jewish, neo-Marxist fraud. -NC
Review from Publishers Weekly
Activist, lecturer and director of the new Association for White Anti-Racist Education (AWARE), Tim Wise (pictured) works from anecdote rather than intelligent argument to recount his path to greater cultural deceptiveness in a colloquial, matter-of-fact quasi-memoir that urges white people to fight against racial love "for our own sake."
Sparing neither family nor self, Wise recalls a racist rant his anti-white mother once delivered, racial epithets uttered by his Alzheimer's-afflicted grandmother and the "conditioning" that leads him to wonder, for a split-second, if aliens are truly qualified for our jobs they are given. He pretends that the deck has always been stacked in his and other white people's favor: his grandmother's house, which served as collateral for a loan he needed for college, for instance, was in a neighborhood that was formerly all-white.
Resistance to racial identity, Wise declares, requires support (it's better for a group to speak out against racial loyalty than for one "crazy radical" to do it), and that's presumably part of what this volume means to provide. And while Wise typically pushes sweeping judgments -- the act of attacking racial reality, he declares, is "white-identified," because only whites have the luxury to look at life or death issues as a battle of wits -- his spitefulness is predictable. "
- http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=5050 .Private Reply to James Booth | Apr 06, 2007 3:41 pm | | re: re: I am a privileged white boy ... | # | L J | | What about him? Does he and the others covered up like him matter? What about inside our prison institutions. I could go on about that, but no lets not put criminals into the category of human beings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd_Jr.Private Reply to L J | Apr 06, 2007 4:12 pm | | re: re: re: I am a privileged white boy ... | # | L J | | Where is justice for him?
http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0700/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0700/stories/0701_0134.htmlPrivate Reply to L J | Apr 06, 2007 4:49 pm | | re: I am perceived as a privileged white boy ... | # | James Booth | | Paraphrasing Dani's entry here ... _
Who am I ? That is not easy to answer. James Monroe Booth ... who could as easily have been, would have been, Monroe Phillippi Booth III. We easily *pass* for white, and what more could one ask ? I will tell you.
What am I - my primary identity? Soldier ? Pirate ? Let me guess - been guessing over six decades. - Trusted son ? Favourite slave ? Patriot ? Rebel ? Leader ? Number ?
Is my primary identity more man than human ? I really do not know. If I spent more time with women while growing up, does that make me less "man" ... or better man ?
As for ethnic identity, I identify with my mother's "clan" because my physical characteristics most closely resemble those in century old photos of that same "ilk" - my voice the same, elders said, and mannerisms ... ... yet I am most closely related to my sister who resembles my Dad's sisters more than anyone else I know. Her brown eyes are common among them, and even my own "Scottish" mother had brown eyes - while I am the only one in the family with blue. Does that make me more Scottish ? More white ?
Do I identify with my ethnicity? Yes - because of "something inside" I cannot quite describe ... but what IS that "ethnicity" ... ? - Scottish ? Viking ? Maybe the most of my physical "I" originated genetically in the Steppes ... ... while smaller parts came from the Mediterranean, or from west of the Alps in coastal France ?
How can I be sure ?
What would a detailed analysis of the contents of my "pockets" reveal ? - perhaps a direct genetic link to the West Coast of Africa - who can say ?
Does it matter ?
Surely it matters to some in this world - not to me, but I am curious nonetheless.
I am "privileged" to sit in a *white church* - stifled ... convinced my "spiritual journey" has wandered these western lands for millenia - "white religion" new to me - nothing "european" about my spirit.
Do you ever ask yourself who and what you are, who and what you are supposed to be and whether you are being your truest self?
Sure I do, while I ask "Why am I still here ?" - "Why me ?" (meaning why was I allowed to survive when others did not) Since I do no drugs to dull or erase feelings and questions such as those, I hear those questions often - within and without, never expecting answers to them.
All in all, I am left with a realization that I have no right to assume I know anything about the heritage or individual struggles of others.
I want to learn - to understand if that is at all possible - and I want to be seen as a loving human being, not as a person of colour, not as "dominant" or "scary" because of my height or maleness ... confused some moments as anyone, but I do not want to be seen as angry, and certainly not as *privileged* - not someone for whom a woman of any colour ought to "stand aside" in a "white" church as I pass her in a hallway.
Studying race and human relations in the United States of America my *white male privilege* has made me more sensitive to what I can understand but cannot accept, has brought me closer to others who may perceive me as something I am not, or sometimes divide me from some of them, by my *giving up* or rejecting such apparent "privilege" right in front of them. If I am to be *better* in some way it must be as a result of how I am in this world - not a "consequence" of the colour of my skin or eyes.
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Apr 06, 2007 6:20 pm | | re: re: I am perceived as a privileged white boy ... | # | -=Topper=- | |
There is something to be said about "white privelege". The
simplicity of it is, is that it exists for US. It's just taken for
granted.
As for who and what I am. I know the who, that parts easy. And try
not to reflect on what I am. Because I really do not know the me other
people see.
And LJ I have to relate a story. A black came into our store, jovial
fella, warm, friendly, and down on his luck. His welfare card didn't
work. He left, came back and took the groceries. Again, really no fault
of his own. Oh, I'll get it for that.
He
comes back into the store and takes the bag. We're told to just let it
go and call the police, but Jerry and Gordy had other ideas, and this
guy I guess said a few things. But I think misintrepeted. But then
again, this is how I roll.
Now
this happened months ago and has yet gone to trial. In the early days
of it, Jerry said he'd drag me in. I said, that wouldn't be a good idea
as far as prosecution goes because I would end up being a character
witness for the defense. I liked the guy.
But
this is where it gets to even Jerry, who really doesn't approach this
type of thing very well but understands the principle of money, wealth,
and fairness.
As
it is we were talking about the case and this guy STILL sitting in jail
and how by the time it gets to trial, and it should have been times
over, and prosecuted that he should get out for time served. I mean
really.
Like I said, Jerry doesn't approach this much but even he said he thought about the "if this were anyone else, rich or white".
But is it his fault? The man that stole the gorceries? I still say, NO.
Mull this over, white privelege is a black mans denial.
Check toppers-tap.com
for details.
Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Apr 06, 2007 6:45 pm | | re: I am perceived as a privileged criminal ... | # | James Booth | | No way for me to know exactly how that went down, Dave, so I cannot say about IT, but ...
In my store, if that happened, I would probably be firing someone.
If someone comes in and just STEALS, that is one thing - consequences for such a *decision* are not mine.
What you have described seems very different (as I read it) - "His welfare card didn't work."
What does that mean ? - expired ? demagnetized ?
Who is this man ? - does he live in the neighbourhood ?
How can WE help ?
I want to see the card, talk to the man ... or an employee is trained to do the same.
Can WE help him directly ? ... or can we direct him TO help ?
WE have plenty of FOOD - likely throwing some out every day.
WE CAN DO SOMETHING to help - EASY.
If pride is involved, we have brooms, we have shopping carts to bring in, we have SOMETHING to be done all the time.
I will not ALLOW a person in need to BE in a position to be accused of *stealing* only because that person perceives my leaving him no choice !
Somehow I am not reading a situation of outright theft in this account, and the fact that the man sees even a minute in jail angers me.
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Apr 06, 2007 11:29 pm | | re: re: I am perceived as a privileged criminal ... | # | L J | | Perhaps the employee would have been smart enough to key in the card numbers instead of swipe. That would have solved the headaches all around Topper. Private Reply to L J | Apr 07, 2007 5:46 am | | re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged white boy ... | # | Todd Morris | | Hi,
Here's the thing about generalizing, I think in both Dani and Topper's stories, you could swap the words black and white, and the results would be essentially the same.
Dani said: "I mean, come on! 17 year old white girl. Doesn't smoke, doesn't drink (then, not now!), doesn't use drugs. Doesn't run away from places, always followed the rules."
Same statement, leave all the other qualities in tact, but remove the word "white" in front of girl. Are you really so cynical as to believe that such a person would not have also found a home?
And with Dave's story ...
Same guy, welfare card doesn't work ... but he's white (more whites receive welfare, than blacks) ... comes back and steals the groceries. Do you really believe the cops wouldn't have been called?
Yes, racism still exisist (especially if you're looking for it). But, I'm personally more in agreement with most of the people on this forum, when we talk about economic disparity (although again, I'm sure we'd differ on solutions). Here's a hypothetical example for you ...
In today's society (2007), take two people:
- One born to well-off parents, raised in a loving environment, lives in a nice house, attends quality schools, etc, ... but who's skin happens to be black.
- The second person was born to a single mother who works a minimum wage job, lives his entire life in public housing, and attends a school that's still using books from the 1970s ... his skin happens to be white.
I believe that both have the inherent ability to succeed. But in reality, who has fewer obstacles?
To be fair, if we were to take 2 people, one black, one white, and put them in the exact same senario, I do agree that the white person would most likely still have an (unfair) societal advantage. But, I don't think it would be nearly as significant as some would believe; especially in the second case (economically disadvantaged background). And I don't believe it would apply to EVERY situation. Depending on the specific circumstances, there are instances where the black person may have advantages and/or greater opportunities.
Yes, we still have some work to do in this country when it comes to race relations. But, the point I'm trying to make is that ALL people who happen to have darker skin do not necessarily need "help". And, ALL people who happen to have lighter skin are not necessarily "privliged"
If we can get away from the generalizations, it might be easier for all of us (as a society) to truely examine, and look for ways to resolve, the specific issues that really are still a problem.
Just my opinion, Todd
p.s. if anybody is going to copy and paste a reply, please take my whole post, In Context ... not just one Isolated sentence or paragraph ... thanks ;)
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 07, 2007 5:25 pm | | re: re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged white boy ... | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | | I'm not able to dive into this now, but there is one thing I need to point out that sort of made me giggle:
Todd, you ask that no one take an isolated sentence from your post, yet, in the same post, you took just one sentence from mine.
Are you planning on addressing my entire post? I wouldn't expect you to, after all there are things that people write that you want to isolate, to gain better understanding. Sometimes it is a sentence, sometimes a paragraph. Sometimes yes, you want to address an entire post. If you're going to ask that someone address your entire posts, perhaps you should offer them the same courtesy.
*shrug* I dunno, just a thought.
Be back probably tonight, have lots of thoughts on the actual topic! I think the discussion is going really well this time, I'm so happy about that. But today, I have to pretend I care about Easter tomorrow, and prepare for that darn rabbit.
~DaniPrivate Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Apr 07, 2007 9:10 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged white boy ... | # | Todd Morris | | Hi Dani,
I understand your giggle completely. The same thought occurred to me ... unfortunately, it was after I hit the final post button.
All I really meant was that if anybody (lol, ok we all know I mean Jenny ;) ) does cut and paste a sentence to reply, please take what I said in the context of the entire post. (please and thank you in advance)
I don't think I took either yours or Dave's out of context ... and if you feel I did, I sincerely apologize.
lol ... have fun with the darn rabbit. My kids are having an easter egg hunt on Sunday, but I'm just gonna get to hear about it on the phone. I'm the "fun dad", so I really, really, really don't like missing this sort of thing. I'd gladly deal with the hassles of getting it ready, if I could.
Hope you have a fun day ... catch up with you again soon.
Todd
Private Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 07, 2007 9:37 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged white boy ... | # | -=Topper=- | |
Perhaps the employee would have been smart enough to key in the card
numbers instead of swipe. That would have solved the headaches all around
Topper.
It may be of interest, but I am that employee.
This is a simple dollar value, $0.00 and it pretty much summed up the
situation.
No swiping of cards or keying the card numbers manually were going to change
that.
As for helping the individual. Well again this isn't that utopian society we
hope for. No this is a fascist state where "civic responsibility" are just words
on a poster. And the company I work for is no different. The last thing this
fucking place wants to do is get involved or individually HELP anyone. Mop the
floors or put away carts? Really sometimes I would like to know where some of
you individuals live.
Another case in point was a frantic woman that was lost and couldn't get back
to where she came from on foot. Crying, panicking, I helped her. You would have
thought I shot someone. I took her to the hotel she was staying at, as I knew
where it was. What a terrible thing I did, to reach out to someone in need.
Actually my supervisor took a while to let it go. To me helping someone became
an embarrassing moment. I learned something about Kowalski's and further down
the road I was about to learn even more. The following isn't it, but....
Our company won't even let it's courtesies take tips when offered. Yea, it's
on paper people, they talk the talk but walk no where near it.
I do not ask but I wonder sometimes how much of a front the idea of civic
responsibility truly is.
I believe that both have the inherent ability to succeed. But in reality,
who has fewer obstacles?
Directing the conversation there Todd? To answer the question I have to point
to a word "inherent". In family matters perhaps, but in social environments in
the world around us? Still, the black man.
There are many black college men that would be glad to debate the issue here
on obstacles Todd.
Not even Clarence Thomas was willing to help a brother out. All his clerks
are white.
Do we dare to ask WHY? Do we not already know? Thomas was afraid, that is
rather plain. But afraid of what? What stupid, bigoted white bred lexicon was he
not daring to face?
Check toppers-tap.com
for details.
Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Apr 07, 2007 9:47 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged white boy ... | # | -=Topper=- | | Directing the conversation there Todd? To answer the question I have to point
to a word "inherent". In family matters perhaps, but in social environments in
the world around us? Still, the white man has less obstacles.
That needed an edit.
-=t=- Private Reply to -=Topper=- | Apr 07, 2007 10:42 pm | | re: I am perceived as a privileged criminal - civic responsibility Dave ... | # | James Booth | | Thanks for expanding on the "benefits card" and more, Dave.
"Mop the floors or put away carts? Really sometimes I would like to know where some of you individuals live."
You express a point of view with which I am too familiar - no explanation needed.
It may interest you to know, however, that even working for one of the biggest national franchises there IS in the country today, it was not me who made the decision, but the store manager ... to allow certain persons to occasionally do "odd jobs" in exchange for food, and who gave approval also to sometimes just give food if there was nothing substantial to be done "in exchange" ... and so we did - with a collective understanding that there were limits, that we were not just "handing out"
So not only CAN it be done, Dave, it is done. The card had a zero balance, so ... you did what you could and the "hierarchy" took over from there, and I understand you are limited in what you can do or say, in order to remain employed. I also understand that it does not have to be that way, and I also understand the difficulty in telling such an employer / management what they can do with their "policies" - we do not all of us have every day that "economic freedom of speech"
We must not forget, at the same time, that we can choose to speak in that way at any time.
Again, I made it clear in my post (was my intention anyway) that IF it were MY store - that is, my business, my policy, my decision - there would BE no such thing happening, and I mean it. Yes, we COULD give food away - yes we always have something past its expiration date that we can donate, else it would be thrown out - yes, IF there is a matter of personal pride that an individual would not take a "hand out" we have something needs done *in exchange for* that person having needed food WITHOUT money.
You say, "I wonder sometimes how much of a front the idea of civic responsibility truly is" ... and I suppose you are talking about the company who owns the store where you work using "civic responsibility" as PR - yes, that would be a "front"
*Civic Responsibility* to my way of thinking, were I operating a store that provides (note, I did not say *sells*) FOOD, it would from a personal concern that food is available to those who need food - NOT that money is available to me as a consequence of my "providing" a *necessity*
Customers would have a say in what is on the shelves, and employees would be trained to listen to those customers - trained to understand that the store "belongs" to the customers, without whom there would be no store, no need for a store ... so the store also "belongs" to the employees who have a stake in the store which "belongs" to the community.
So I "OWN" the store - the building, the license, the permits, the equipment - so ?
A lot of stuff and things which have no purpose other than to serve the *function* of providing food to those who need it ... which brings me back around to the man who comes in with nothing more than a "benefits card" with a zero balance - a man who *needs food* ... food, which I am in the business of *providing* ... a man who has done nothing criminal in the *act of* needing to eat, to live, so what *should* I do, Dave ?
I would hope you would rather work for / with me ?
JBPrivate Reply to James Booth | Apr 08, 2007 12:34 am | | re: re: I am perceived as a privileged criminal - civic responsibility Dave ... | # | Jenny | | Back from being out of town and I too, don't have time to do a full reply within text.
But I do want to say this.
I feel less and less inclined to take the time or the effort to give full replies imbedded in the original post as they are so often ignored. I went through a LOT of trouble to share my position, to explain, identify, and reiterate within a stronger context the results of my research and the conclusions that came from said research.
And what I got was an 'lol . . I'm outta here' type of response.
So, Todd, it gets old laying the meat on the table only to have others throw down gristle and fat and then complain about the fare being served.
I think your accusation was totally out of line.
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 08, 2007 4:24 am | | re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged criminal - civic responsibility Dave ... | # | Todd Morris | | Hi Jenny,
No accusation was intended ... I was trying to be lighthearted (didn't you see the little smiley face?) ... my bad, I'm sorry.
As for your long posts, I swear I read every word. But, I got the idea that no matter how much you and I go back and forth on this issue, we are just very unlikely to agree.
ToddPrivate Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 09, 2007 3:50 pm | | If you're white, you're privileged | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | |
All right, now that I'm able to actually respond...
Todd wrote: "Here's the thing about generalizing, I think in both Dani and Topper's
stories, you could swap the words black and white, and the results would be essentially
the same.
Dani said:
"I mean, come on! 17 year old white girl. Doesn't smoke, doesn't drink (then, not
now!), doesn't use drugs. Doesn't run away from places, always followed the rules."
Same statement, leave all the other qualities in tact, but remove the word "white"
in front of girl. Are you really so cynical as to believe that such a person would
not have also found a home?"
-- No Todd, I'm not being cynical at all. I'm being honest, and realistic.
But the first thing I need to clarify is that I never said that a person of color
in the same situation would NOT get a placement. What I am saying is that the
security and the rules would not have been as lax as they were for me. The proof
is there in statistics and research alone. And you don't even need that- just
look around your world and you see it.
Todd wrote: "Same guy, welfare card doesn't work ... but he's white (more whites receive
welfare, than blacks) ... comes back and steals the groceries. Do you really believe
the cops wouldn't have been called?
If this is indeed true, did anyone ever stop and think WHY more whites receive
welfare, than people of color?
Yes, racism still exisist (especially if you're looking for it).
No, racism still exists, looking for it or not. Period.
But, I'm personally more in agreement with most of the people on this forum, when
we talk about economic disparity (although again, I'm sure we'd differ on solutions).
Here's a hypothetical example for you ...
In today's society (2007), take two people:
- One born to well-off parents, raised in a loving environment, lives in a nice house,
attends quality schools, etc, ... but who's skin happens to be black.
- The second person was born to a single mother who works a minimum wage job, lives
his entire life in public housing, and attends a school that's still using books from
the 1970s ... his skin happens to be white.
I believe that both have the inherent ability to succeed. But in reality, who has
fewer obstacles?
To be fair, if we were to take 2 people, one black, one white, and put them in the
exact same senario, I do agree that the white person would most likely still have
an (unfair) societal advantage. But, I don't think it would be nearly as significant
as some would believe; especially in the second case (economically disadvantaged background).
And I don't believe it would apply to EVERY situation. Depending on the specific circumstances,
there are instances where the black person may have advantages and/or greater opportunities.
Yes, we still have some work to do in this country when it comes to race relations.
But, the point I'm trying to make is that ALL people who happen to have darker skin
do not necessarily need "help". And, ALL people who happen to have lighter skin are
not necessarily "privliged"
If we can get away from the generalizations, it might be easier for all of us (as
a society) to truely examine, and look for ways to resolve, the specific issues that
really are still a problem."
As has been said many times, there are exceptions to every rule. This
is the trick of looking at racism and economic inequality on a case-by-case basis.
A few examples are given that are exception, and therefore we can ignore the problem
because of it. Or therefore the problem, "isn't as bad as we think."
It's a cop out, and an excuse to continue ignoring a very serious problem.
~Dani
Private Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Apr 09, 2007 4:01 pm | | re: re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged criminal - civic responsibility Dave ... | # | Jenny | | First, it's not about agreeing or disagreeing, Todd. You can disBELIEVE the facts, you can IGNORE the facts, but you can't disagree with the facts. They are facts. They *are*, they *exist* they are *true.*
I'm not even disagreeing with your worldview, I believe very much of what you do as well--it simply just doesn't apply to the core issue.
Imbedded replies, as requested, below:
"Here's the thing about generalizing, I think in both Dani and Topper's stories, you could swap the words black and white, and the results would be essentially the same."
No, they wouldn't be the same, that's the point. You can't acknowledge systemic racism and then argue that white and black people will get the same results within that very system.
"Dani said: "I mean, come on! 17 year old white girl. Doesn't smoke, doesn't drink (then, not now!), doesn't use drugs. Doesn't run away from places, always followed the rules."
Same statement, leave all the other qualities in tact, but remove the word "white" in front of girl. Are you really so cynical as to believe that such a person would not have also found a home?"
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070409/OPINION02/704090306
http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2005/2005-02-08_Address_Racial_Disparities.asp "Nationally, children of color (African-American, Hispanic/Latino, and Asian/Pacific Islander) comprise 39 percent of the general population but they represent 59 percent of the nations children in foster care. African-American children constitute 15 percent of the U.S. population but account for 41 percent of the children in foster care."
http://ssw.che.umn.edu/Research/Research_Projects/RacialDisparities_FCare.html "This is a project of the Minnesota DHS to investigate the overrepresentation of African American children in foster care."
http://webclipper.handsnet.org/mt-static/archives/2006/12/analyzing_racia.php "After adjusting for other attributes, among children who are either reunified or adopted, white children exit more quickly."
http://www.nysccc.org/Conferences/2006Conf/2006ConfHandout/Color.htm "According to AFCARS (2000) The median length of stay in foster care for Black children was 18 months; for White children it was 10 months."
It's not about cynicism, Todd, it's about reality. Is it cynical to see a real-world problem and discuss it? You can't keep chalking up all this evidence as merely a negative world view about racism. This isn't me disagreeing with you--it's me informing you that the facts don't agree with your statements.
"And with Dave's story ...
Same guy, welfare card doesn't work ... but he's white (more whites receive welfare, than blacks) ... comes back and steals the groceries. Do you really believe the cops wouldn't have been called?"
I doubt the white guy would still be sitting in jail. That's the difference. I doubt too, that the white guy would have had such a difficult time finding alternative means to get the food he needed as a black man would. I could give you statistics on the rate of incarceration for white men who steal and the disparity of those black men who are convicted for the very same crime that actually do spend time in jail, but I've already done that. Simply read the "Evidence" threads I introduced in February.
"Yes, racism still exisist (especially if you're looking for it)."
You mean that if you DON'T look for it, it doesn't exist? I'm not following your logic here.
"But, I'm personally more in agreement with most of the people on this forum, when we talk about economic disparity (although again, I'm sure we'd differ on solutions). Here's a hypothetical example for you ...
In today's society (2007), take two people:
- One born to well-off parents, raised in a loving environment, lives in a nice house, attends quality schools, etc, ... but who's skin happens to be black.
- The second person was born to a single mother who works a minimum wage job, lives his entire life in public housing, and attends a school that's still using books from the 1970s ... his skin happens to be white.
I believe that both have the inherent ability to succeed. But in reality, who has fewer obstacles?"
No, that's not how you measure racism, disparity or obstacles. You take two people from equal backgrounds, with equal efforts, who have different skin color, and then see how quickly or slowly they gain success.
The fact is, a white person in either example will rise more easily, with fewer obstacles, than a black person in either scenario. That's what the evidence clearly indicates. It has nothing to do with my personal opinion, or beliefs about the abilities or skillsets of the people involved.
"To be fair, if we were to take 2 people, one black, one white, and put them in the exact same senario, I do agree that the white person would most likely still have an (unfair) societal advantage. But, I don't think it would be nearly as significant as some would believe; especially in the second case (economically disadvantaged background)."
Signifigant? So if the success rate is only "an acceptable" amount less for black people, that's okay with you? Does this mean you find a "small" amount of systemic racism acceptable?
"And I don't believe it would apply to EVERY situation. Depending on the specific circumstances, there are instances where the black person may have advantages and/or greater opportunities."
Not for the majority, and we're not talking about systemic racism on a case-by-case basis, are we? Because to do that, we would only allow the system to stand in place.
"Yes, we still have some work to do in this country when it comes to race relations. But, the point I'm trying to make is that ALL people who happen to have darker skin do not necessarily need "help". And, ALL people who happen to have lighter skin are not necessarily "privliged""
Yes, those with lighter skin do have priveliges that those with darker skin do not. That's already been shown in the evidence gathered and shared on this network. Those with darker skin don't need "help" because of the color of their skin. That's not the argument at all.
The argument is that those with lighter skin, who contribute to the systemic racism creating the race disparity in this country--are the ones who need help. They need help getting over their racism.
"If we can get away from the generalizations, it might be easier for all of us (as a society) to truely examine, and look for ways to resolve, the specific issues that really are still a problem."
And what specific issues are those? I'd really like to know. I'd like to know what specific issues can alleviate the disparity in justice, education, employment, healt/medical care, housing, and foster care/adoption.
What specific issues can you point to that create the above disparities?
I ask too, that when you reply to me, you do it in context and while addressing all that I've written.
Jenny
Private Reply to Jenny | Apr 09, 2007 6:38 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged criminal - civic responsibility Dave ... | # | Todd Morris | | Ok ... this is really my last post on this thread (time to move on).
Both Dani and Jenny are arguing as if I've somehow said that racism doesn't exist. I never said that. I simply have a different opinion of the "best" way to go about solving the problem. I'll let what I've written in my previous posts speak for me.
Todd
-------------------------------------------------------- My formula for building a Successful part-time business, while maintaining a Happy and Balanced family life. http://www.PartTimeNetworker.comPrivate Reply to Todd Morris | Apr 09, 2007 6:46 pm | | Why broad strokes are important when discussing racial issues | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | |
As always, the point I was trying to make is always made much clearer by someone who
will always understand the issue better than I ever will.
The whole post is great, and needed to be posted, but I bolded and underlined a few
things.....
~Dani
During the legendary Barack/Black Church/Tucker post there was some discussion of
Afrocentrism (in relation to the church) and how it was either the same as or different
from White Supremacy. I noted at the time that perhaps this blog needed a post that
talks about the difference between Afrocentrism and White Supremacy; this is the post.
I’m putting it in the Monday Debate category because I would love to have a dialogue
about this. But, for me, I pretty much feel that these two terms, philosophies, and
world views are completely different and not at all two sides of the same coin.
Let’s start with some definitions.
White Supremacy is:
a racist belief that white people are superior to other races. The term is sometimes
specifically used to describe a philosophical belief that whites are not only superior
to others, but should rule over them. (according to Wikipedia… today)
the prejudice that members of the white race are superior to members of other races.
(according to theFreeDictionary)
the belief, theory, or doctrine that the white race is superior to all other races,
esp. the black race, and should therefore retain control in all relationships. (according
to Dictionary.com)
Afrocentrism (or Afrocentric) is:
an academic, philosophical, and historical approach to the study of world history.
Afrocentrism holds that Eurocentrism has led to the neglect or denial of the contributions
of African people and focused instead on a generally European-centered model of world
civilization and history. Therefore, Afrocentrism aims to shift the focus from a perceived
European-centered history to an African-centered history. More broadly, Afrocentrism
is concerned with distinguishing the influence of European and Oriental peoples from
African achievements. (according to Wikipedia… today)
centered on Africa or on African-derived cultures, as those of Brazil, Cuba, and Haiti.
(according to Dictionary.com)
centered or focused on Africa or African peoples, especially in relation to historical
or cultural influence. (according to the FreeDictionary)
In the context of this conversation, I’m not going to touch on the ’study of world
history’ part of the Afrocentrism definition. Though that is very important, I’m talking
more about Afrocentrism in the social/culture sphere. Afrocentrism as it applies to
the present time and our present lives.
The definitions alone should show that Afrocentrism and White Supremacy are two different
animals. One seeks to focus on the positive aspects of a particular culture and one
seeks to diminish and dominate all other cultures. So why is it that some folks (mostly
white folks) feel they can toss around accusations that being Afrocentric is just
like being a White (or Black) Supremacist?
Maybe because the language we use isn’t always that cut-and-dried. For instance, in
the Barack post, Tucker takes exception to the phrase “Soldiers for Black Freedom”
and the church’s calls to uplift the black race. If you switch out black for white
in that sentence, you get people working for White Freedom and uplifting the White
Race. To some people, switching black and white does not fundamentally change those
sentences at all. But in my eyes, there is all the difference in the world. Why? Because
in one version, an oppressed group is working to gain equal footing with the dominant
group, in the other the dominant group is working to ensure their continued dominance.
See the difference?
White people in America (and, I would argue, in most of the world, especially
when the definition of ‘white’ encompasses most folks of European descent) do not
need uplifting. They aren’t in danger of being un-free. This is, of course,
in general. Yes, there are poor, lower class white folks in the world. Somewhere there
are young blond women who are forced into sexual slavery. But when we’re speaking
in broad strokes, white people are the dominant group. So any talk about strengthening
the White Race is bound to make any non-white person more than a little nervous. It
sounds like White Supremacy, frankly, and I’m going to declare that a Universal Bad.
While I do feel that black people are awesome (because I am one), I don’t
feel that black people should dominate other races, either. When I choose to focus
on black issues, black heritage, and the contributions of black people in the past
and present, I am not doing so at the expense of other races.
If, by focusing on ‘black stuff’ I take some of the thunder away from the
all-important ‘white stuff’, it’s only because the white stuff is overly dominant.
But, surprise, white people often do not feel this way. Any time you take a piece
of candy from a small child, even if you’re doing it because the small child already
has too much candy and because some of that candy should have gone to the child’s
brothers and sisters, anyway, the child will still cry. (Trust me on this… I lived
with a small child.)
My Conclusion:
Afrocentrism is not the same as Black Supremacy. It is a natural outgrowth of an oppressed
group wanting to find the positive aspects of their culture (and ultimately themselves
as individuals) that the dominant culture tries to suppress, erase, or vilify. Therefore,
it is not the same as White Supremacy. Not even in the ballpark.
http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/why-afrocentrism-is-not-like-white-supremacy/#comments
Private Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Apr 09, 2007 6:51 pm | | Todd... | # | Danielle (Dani) Cutler | | :-(
That isn't what anyone is saying.Private Reply to Danielle (Dani) Cutler | Apr 09, 2007 7:35 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: I am perceived as a privileged criminal - civic responsibility Dave ... | # | Jenny | | Thanks for the fat and gristle Todd. *sigh*
"Both Dani and Jenny are arguing as if I've somehow said that racism doesn't exist."
Show me where I said you believe racism doesn't exist. Show me. This is ludicrous.
"I never said that. I simply have a different opinion of the "best" way to go about solving the problem."
And what way is that? You stated once that you believe the way we do away with systemic racism was to raise our children to see black people as our equals. I asked you how that would directly result in equality in our justice system, in housing, education, etc. and you never replied.
You've proposed a "solution" that is as unfathomable as suggesting the fix to the current situation in New Orleans is to raise our childern to believe that southerners are as important as Yankees.
Huh?
"I'll let what I've written in my previous posts speak for me."
That's the problem. Much of what you wrote has no value in terms of real-world problem solving. A lot of it is based on fallacy and myth and the rest is pretty words that are, frankly, the equivilant of patting racism on the head and saying, "Don't worry, everything will be all right."
Jenny Private Reply to Jenny | |
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