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Google Creating Problems in PR World | Views: 940 |
Sep 01, 2009 8:00 pm | | Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Google News has suddenly "shut out" Pitchengine from using its service. No explanation. Please protest this action of Google.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 01, 2009 8:14 pm | | re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Perhaps this is why. http://www.pamil-visions.net/bad-seo-pr-strategies/24630/
Lamar, how do you know it has been shut down?Did tehy meet Google's requiremenst for a news service? Why should we protest this? They are two for profit companies.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 01, 2009 8:32 pm | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Russ Jackman | | I agree with Scott ... if many of the releases coming through free PR services are thinly-veiled promotional pieces or poorly researched, biased "news" releases, then PitchEngine should be banished from the search engines. We rely on Google and news services for relevant, valuable content, not as another "free" advertising vehicle or "article marketing 2.0".
I for one get very tired of "spam" releases in my Google news alerts. Spam is still spam, no matter what form it takes ... checking out PitchEngine, the first release I clicked on was a "release" (ad) for a free tele-seminar. If they have run afoul of Google, it is because of "news releases" like this.
Perhaps they should offer a paid version of the service that might carry a little more importance with Google? For example, the freebies will continue to carry spam and be ignored by Google, but professional releases could be distributed for a slight fee - the fee would do wonders to filter out the spammers.
RussPrivate Reply to Russ Jackman |
Sep 01, 2009 8:59 pm | | re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Russ,
If Google is going to shut out Pitchengine, shouldn't they give Pitchengine an explanation first? Pitchengine has paying customers. Those customers are paying money to receive the service Pitchengine advertised - which includes getting SMR's (Social Media Releases) on Google News.
If you went to the Post Office and paid to have a package delivered and the Post Office was contracted to FedX, but one day FedX not only decides not to deliver packages, but not to even provide a reason as to why to the Post Office, who would you be upset with - the Post Office or FedX?
This matter is not being handled in a fair and reasonable manner. If Google News decides to no longer carry Pitchengine releases, they should explain their actions to Pitchengine BEFORE they take them. You don't "shoot first and then ask questions later."
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 01, 2009 9:10 pm | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Does pitchengine pay Google?If not they are not clients. My guess was they wanted 'free'. But why are you upset Lamar?
Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 01, 2009 9:23 pm | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Russ Jackman | | Lamar,
Google doesn't "owe" anything to you, me, PitchEngine or any website or service. Google's mission is clear: to provide relevant results to users. If PitchEngine cannot or does not monitor the so-called "releases" to maintain quality, then it is in Google's best interest (and the best interest of Google's users) to drop the consistent source of spam (PitchEngine). Google s not to blame; the PitchEngine users who are distributing crap and spam under the guise of "news" through the system are to blame.
Russ
Private Reply to Russ Jackman |
Sep 01, 2009 10:04 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Reg Charie | | Lamar, Google's obligations are to it's results in the organic listings. If you are a company that is trying to get good organic listings you should at least offer relevant, newsworthy copy.
I have often paid $250 to a release firm to host my press release. The quality and PR of the news organizations that picked it up were tons better than the free services.
You get what you pay for.
Reg - NEW DEMO!! Turn photos into paintings http://FantasticMachines.com All You Need is Dotcom-Productions and a Dream. http://dotcom-productions.com 0Grief http://0grief.com/special_hosting_accounts_for_my_ryze_friends.htm CRELoaded websites http://RegCharie.com - SBTT http://thinktank-network.ryze.comPrivate Reply to Reg Charie |
Sep 02, 2009 12:22 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Reg,
Pitchengine is not a wire service. It is a social media release service. It hosts SMR's on its site. Now, if you want to pay $250 to send out a single press release, be my guest. But, the money you spend to send out that press release does not necessarily reflect the value of the press release you send. Valuable information can be freely posted to a blog, online newsletter or ezine article. We all know that.
One of the "paid features" of using Pitchengine was the fact that what you posted on Pitchengine made it onto Google News. Google allowed Pitchengine to do this. Then, they changed their mind. Common courtesy demands they at the very least explain their actions. Let's not simply "assume" we know what Google did and why.
Google is not a private company. Google is a public company. Therefore, Google is accountable to the public - which includes current shareholders as well as potential shareholders. We, the public, deserve an answer and should have it...from Google!
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 02, 2009 12:54 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Russ Jackman | | Hi Lamar,
Ummm ... no. Google is not accountable to the public. To the shareholders, yes, but only as far as corporate governance and financial results are concerned.
To a degree we are assuming what and why Google pulled PitchEngine from Google News ... however, there is a very obvious and glaring possibility - too many people were abusing a free service. Charging a fee would eliminate the vast majority of the releases that likely caused a problem for PitchEngine. The bottom line Lamar, the free releases likely aren't worth Google's effort to index, and likely not relevant or valuable enough to distribute via alerts or organic search results.
The problem is that PitchEngine did not provide the equivalent of a "paid service". If they had, the quality of the releases being fed to Google News would have been higher, and they would not have been in this position. What they provided was a free platform for people to spam Google News, with this predictable result. Yes, it is possible to spam with the paid services too, but the fact you need a return on your investment will filter out most spammers and amateurs.
PitchEngine is not the first, nor the last, site to have the rules changed on them by Google. Google does not exist to serve marketers, it is there to serve end users searching for information relevant to their query. Who knows, one day Google may get tired of indexing Squidoo if they determine there is too much spam, duplicate content, etc., in which case a link from Squidoo could actually hurt your business (regardless of how valuable your "content" is) simply by association.
And to a certain degree Lamar, yes the money spent does reflect the value of the press release. Not necessarily the quality of the content, but the "value" of the release and the credibility that release has with the audience.
This is the point that has been difficult for you to understand ... free services tend to reflect poorly on a business. Free services often don't provide the same results as paid services, and in the end it's all about results.
I bet Reg would receive more benefit from his $250 release than an identical release through PitchEngine. Does that mean he should avoid PitchEngine or any other free PR distribution site in addition to a proven, paid service? Not necessarily, as long as the site is not filled with spam and useless releases ... you tend to be "guilty by association", and by posting where worthless releases are prevalent, your release is less valuable by association.
Russ Private Reply to Russ Jackman |
Sep 02, 2009 2:55 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Russ,
I always enjoy reading your comments - even when I do not agree with them 100%. However, most of the time, I do agree with what you say...believe it or not:)
When I first joined Pitchengine, the press release service to Google News was indeed free. However, that stopped after only about a month for the very reason you brought up - spamming. Many people were joining Pitchengine as a FREE member and posting SPAMMY press releases, which did get posted to Google News.
For several months now, you have had to pay a monthly fee to use Pitchengine and be able to have your press releases archived for more than 30 days. Getting the release posted to Google News was really a side benefit. But now, that side benefit is gone.
According to Pitchengine, only 2% of the press releases read can be tracked to Google News. Hence, Google News is NOT how most of these releases are found. Nevertheless, I think Google News added a level of credibility, which is currently gone. Would I like it to return? Absolutely! Why? Because I paid a fee that supposedly included it? Partly. But, moreover, I want Google to associate itself with Pitchengine because it brings many of the people I want to attract under the same tent. It makes it easier for me to locate the PR resources and contacts I need. It's not really about playing the wire services game...not for me, anyway.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 02, 2009 3:36 am | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Lamar Google is not the post office.
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 02, 2009 4:48 am | | re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Lindy,
True, Google is not the Post Office. However, Google is a public company. It cannot do everything it does in secret like a private company.
Pitchengine, on the other hand, is a private company. Pitchengine sold a service which Google made possible. For Google to simply kill the service and not even bother to explain what it is doing or why to Pitchengine seems very inappropriate to me. The only way Pitchengine could provide this service through Google is with Google's permission. It appears that Google is doing itself a disservice by not even attempting to explain its bizarre behavior.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 02, 2009 5:04 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | >>Pitchengine sold a service which Google made possible.
That's like blaming Google for all the spam on the internet.
Pitch engine. Even the name sounds like spam trouble.
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 02, 2009 5:29 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Heidi Caswell | | So Pitch engine was making money from a free service offered by google, that could be another reason they were dropped. If you offered a service for free and another business turned around and sold it for profit with added features which added spam to your search engine results, would that not motivate you to close them down.
People have a right to leave a post on my ryze page too, and I, thankfully, can delete any guestbook entries I consider spam. I wouldn't feel obligated to explain why, although I sometimes did to educate.
Heidi Caswell http://connectsimply.comPrivate Reply to Heidi Caswell |
Sep 02, 2009 12:31 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Heidi Caswell | | There are those who are told to create a bunch of press releases for their business, but not told how to write one. So they send their PR to the free sites. If they took the time to learn, or paid a pr expert to write one for them, they'd be better off.
I'm not saying all PR are spam, and nothing wrong with regular press releases, it is just finding that news angle so you can have a quality non spammy press release. Once you have a great press release you don't want to put it near a bunch of spam.
I learned much at an online event, many experts in the field. http://www.womensmediasummit.com/category/press-release/
Heidi Caswell http://connectsimply.com
Private Reply to Heidi Caswell |
Sep 02, 2009 2:41 pm | | Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Where is the proof that there was an agreement between PitchEngine and Google? In the early days of Yahoo I am had collegue that was good friends with a person at Yahoo. This was when they had humans approving listings. He could get a site listed in 24 hours. He made good money doing this for a while. They Yahoo found out about it and removed all the listings. Yahoo never offered any reason, they did not have to. Like google it is their property to do with as they like.You can get a refund from spamengine though as their service has been changed.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 02, 2009 9:37 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Lindy,
If someone got your email address and sent you an unsolicited message outside the CAN SPAM parameters, that's SPAM. However,if you gave someone your password and permission to upload content to your website, what they upload IS NOT SPAM. Why? Because SPAM is, by its own definition, UNSOLICITED. If you give someone the keys to your home and they use those keys to go inside, they are not trespassing.
In the same sense, Google had to give Pitchengine permission to have access to Google News. After all, there's a reason why the general public does not have such access. Now, I do not know if Google was charging Pitchengine money for that access or not. But, I do know that for some time Pitchengine members were paying for the privilege to load press releases to Google News. The fact that they are still paying a monthly fee that includes that access and no longer have it is what concerns me.
This situation is similar to purchasing a gas credit card and not being able to use it - not because the gas station went out of business - but because the regional owner decided he no longer likes gas credit credit cards.
Like Pitchengine, the gas station, is still a viable service. But, one of the conveniences is now gone. Since Google News seems to have "dropped the bass" on this one, let's hope Pitchengine comes up with a more viable alternative. However, I must confess I will miss not having center stage on Google News the way I once did. While I do believe being on Google News is worthwhile, I do not believe it is always worth what wire services are requesting you pay for the exposure.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 02, 2009 9:49 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | spam is also a term for general noise. IE on this network people have been posting article links that they have posted to numerious other networks. They are spamming. Google news does not accept press releases. They do however recognize news sources. http://www.google.com/support/news_pub/bin/answer.py?answer=40787&topic=14527
MY guess is taht they do not like pitchengine.com selling postions as that means they are not a news agency, but a PR agent. pitchengine most likely violated the Google TOS.
A regional gas station owner does not have to accept the card because they can not be bound by anothers contract. One reason is taht they lose money on the transcation when gas prices are high.
Lamar, why are you so worked up over this? Did it destroy your what you claimed you could do?
Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 03, 2009 12:40 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
I checked out your link and did a little snooping. Here's a little bit of what I found out about Google News from Google:
"Google News is a computer-generated news site that aggregates headlines from news sources worldwide, groups similar stories together and displays them according to each reader's personalized interests.
"Traditionally, news readers first pick a publication and then look for headlines that interest them. We do things a little differently, with the goal of offering our readers more personalized options and a wider variety of perspectives from which to choose. On Google News we offer links to several articles on every story, so you can first decide what subject interests you and then select which publishers’ accounts of each story you’d like to read. Click on the headline that interests you and you'll go directly to the site which published that story.
"Our articles are selected and ranked by computers that evaluate, among other things, how often and on what sites a story appears online. We also rank based on certain characteristics of news content such as freshness, location, relevance and diversity. As a result, stories are sorted without regard to political viewpoint or ideology and you can choose from a wide variety of perspectives on any given story. We'll continue to improve Google News by adding sources, fine-tuning our technology and providing Google News to readers in even more regions."
Although I do not have the information posted here, I believe it is possible to manually submit news to Google News. Then, why use Pitchengine and pay a fee? Because Pitchengine makes the process easier. Pitchengine automates the process for the person who writes the press release.
So, if the service is indeed offerred freely to the public by Google, why would Google decide to remove ALL the posts that have ever been submitted through Pitchengine? Why would they do that and at the same time encourage the public to manually submit more articles to Google News for their consideration? I would just like an explanation. I feel certain Pitchengine would also like an explanation.
Why should what Google does to Pitchengine matter to me? Because it impacts what I can say about what I can do. I can no longer say that what I write gets showcased on Google News. It's not automatic,anymore. That sense of exclusivity is gone. So what if you can still get on Google News in a "hit-and-miss" fashion through manual submission - even if it is free. Who wants that? Would anyone here want their blog to work in a "hit-and-miss" fashion? Of course not. Well, it's the same deal with a press release. You want your message to be SEEN where you send it. Well, it appears that Google has decided to take a different approach and adversely impacted the needs of a lot of people who use Pitchengine for the same reason I do.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 03, 2009 1:13 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | The public can not submit to Google News. I know this because I asked them at SES. I was asking for a then client who is a newspaper. The requirements are stringent. They must be a business devoted to news, have a paid staff, a physical location and a busienss telephone number. Why they dunped pitchengine? >>We'll continue to improve Google News by adding sources, fine-tuning our technology and providing Google News to readers in even more regions."
Google is trying to keep news as news. Not paid pitches for your benefit. Would you trust your local paper if all the articles were paid for? What you can do is form your own news outlet. Use Joomla or Drupal. Report on real news including your press release. Then apply as a news source. STOP TRYING FOR FREE.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 03, 2009 1:26 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Scott the shame of it is that a lot of what passes for "news" in print media is just sourced from PR releases or thinly disguised sales pitches.
Kudos to Google if they are maintaining some integrity in the news.
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 03, 2009 3:07 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Lindy,
If you take a look at Pitchengine, I think you will see that the company caters to people in the PR industry. You will also see that the overwhelming majority of the SMR's (Social Media Releases) are NOT thinly disguised sales pitches, but happening news about real businesses. I have yet to see one SMR that lifts up its own business.
If the problem happens to be that Google no longer sees Pitchengine as a bonafide news service, when it in fact creates online newsrooms for many of its clients, I think Pitchengine should at least be told by Google what the problem is. Why can't Google shed some light on its adverse actions? If Google is justified in doing what it did, why not explain it? Why keep it a secret and do damage to Pitchengine and all its PR clients?
If Squidoo can come forward and explain its change of mind concerning content on its many sites to its audience of lensmasters, I see no reason why Google cannot do likewise when it too has a change-of-mind.
If this matter is really about"news integrity," then where is Google's integrity? The company needs to step up to the plate and be accountable to its public for its actions. Google needs to explain what it has done to Pitchengine and why. To remain silent I believe sends the wrong message...a message that says it cannot be relied upon. Pitchengine relied on Google. Google decided to remove Pitchengine as a news source and say nothing. This is irresponsible behavior. And, simply put, irresponsible behavior is BAD PR. That's not something Google should want to attract.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 03, 2009 3:21 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Lamar you said it so well here
>Pitchengine relied on Google.
So many members of this forum have been trying to put this exact thing to you. Don't be relying on free services.
Don't build a business on the back of things over which you have no control.
Google doesn't have to justify it's actions in this regard. Google is a service that people can use. If a business wants to use it for purposes of their own, well and good, but when they are no longer able to game the system, which is perhaps what this is about, then boo hoo... Move on.
Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
Lindy
Private Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 03, 2009 3:36 am | | re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | According to this article this is an issue of action taken by Pitchengine - not Google. And is about revenue raising.
http://www.wicked-pr.com/blog/social-media/pitchengine-responds-to-google-news-spammers-999.html
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 03, 2009 3:47 am | | Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Larmar, You can boycot Google. Stop the ads on Squidoo and do not click on any google ad links.
Perhaps google told pitch engine and they kept it to themselves.
>>Google needs to explain what it has done to Pitchengine and why
Why? Do you explain to others your business choices?Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 03, 2009 5:02 am | | re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Lindy,
Your link is old news. That explains why Pitchengine charges for the posting of press releases on Google News - even though Google News does not charge a fee. The reason? To reduce spamming and reduce the unfair advantage of advancing one's page rank on Google. In other words, Pitchengine is taking the "high road."
Now, look at what Google has done. It's has removed ALL of the Pitchengine posts from Google News - not just the most recent. Google has removed ALL of them. Why? Why remove news that was archived four months ago or more?
Look, if you say you don't want to host press releases on Google News by Pitchengine, fine. But, if you welcome such content for a year or more, then suddenly stop and decide to remove ALL of it, I think that deserves an explanation.
If you went to the Post Office to check the mail in your P.O. Box and your key did not work, you would likely be asking questions about the matter to the postal clerk to get the issue resolved. Now, if the postal clerk told you she was clueless and had no idea what was wrong, but to solve the matter told you to visit a website site's support section, how would you feel? Well, that is what Google told me to do when I called them on the phone. However, the website Google sent me to did not address my concerns. What am I to do?
Who's at fault here? Am I at fault for using a fee-based service, like Pitchengine? Is Pitchengine at fault for submitting its specialized news content to Google News? Or, is Google at fault for removing the content which it requested and for months archived, then suddenly chose to remove.
The problem as I see it is Google's not alerting Pitchengine regarding what it planned to do so Pitchengine could make amends to its customer base. What it appears Google has done to Pitchengine, it can do to any content provider. Is that as it should be? I think you should be accountable to the audience you supposedly serve.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 03, 2009 5:09 am | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Lamar how do you know what notification Pitchengine had?
You say my link is old news. Maybe so. What has changed to be "new" and where is your link to that? So far we have not seen anything from you to show Google's position in this.
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 03, 2009 1:25 pm | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Russ Jackman | | Lamar,
In your post office example, you would have a contract of some sort with the post office. You have no contract with Google, and likely PitchEngine did not have a contract with Google (and if they did, their TOS would likely say they could change or discontinue service at any time for any reason).
Your gripe is with PitchEngine, not Google. Google was simply doing what was in the best interest of Google's users, in Google's opinion. PitchEngine was monitoring for what they considered "spam", but was not (and as of this morning, is still not) filtering the content and quality of press releases submitted through their service.
It's probably press releases (ads) like "Save 30% at such-and-such resort" or promoting a teleseminar that got PitchEngine dropped. The members weren't "spamming" the service (sending a high volume of repetitive releases), but they are submitting poor quality "news" which Google doesn't want (and which most Google readers *would* consider spam).
From a discussion found on a Google forum, PitchEngine was dropped due to quality of the "news" being fed to Google. PitchEngine replied that they took care of spam with the move to a paid service, but when I had a look at PitchEngine again this morning almost half of the "press releases" were promotional in nature, and not newsworthy by any means. I would imagine in Google's view, that PitchEngine generally is not a credible news source and as such, would be dropped from the Google News index.
Here's the link: http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/news/thread?tid=61ffcb4639804c26&hl=en
If PitchEngine is re-considered for inclusion in Google, then you might consider using them again though I wouldn't base my business model on it ;) In the meantime, it sounds like your business relies on offering access to Google News, so you need to start looking at *credible* news sources that are still being listed in Google News and find another channel through which to submit to the index.
Or, better yet, create your own news site (as Scott suggested) where you control the quality of the submissions (even if only posting press releases generated by yourself for your clients), set up a Google Sitemaps XML news feed, and start to be in control of your business. If Google won't index your site, then you need to look at what you are offering up as "newsworthy".
RussPrivate Reply to Russ Jackman |
Sep 03, 2009 2:25 pm | | re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Russ,
I checked out the link. I see what you are saying. I am not above correction. Somebody from Google did respond. That is what I needed to hear. The problem here is not really Google or Pitchengine. The problem is that "some" of the folks using Pitchengine are posting press releases that are not newsworthy. This is the case of a few rotten apples spoiling the barrel.
When you think about it, we have the same problem here on Ryze - people posting content that is supposed to be forbidden. But, what can you do? Do you throw the baby out with the bath water? In the case of Google News, to preserve the quality of content, the answer is "Yes." Both the baby and the bathwater get thrown out because you cannot separate one from the other. But, Pitchengine and Ryze cannot do that - without monitoring every single post that comes down the pike. And, that is simply more trouble than it is worth. Hence, we have had flames and all sorts of stuff. I know because I have been in some of them. Once a flame ignites, it is hard to put out.
If I understand you and Scott correctly, I can set up an XML feed myself and send press releases directly to Google News. What matters most to me is that the press releases I write get onto Google News - not that it happens via Pitchengine.
Even though Pitchengine is no longer able to connect with Google News, it still has value due to the fact it is a "gathering place" for like-minded people through its Ning network. In addition, in many ways, the site functions as an an online press kit.
No point in trying to re-invent the wheel when creating that XML site. I just need the XML site as a means to get the press releases I write to be carried on Google News. If there are other news carriers that have the same stringent requirements as Google News, then perhaps the XML site can come in handy in developing a relationship with them as well.
Thanks for the advice.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 03, 2009 3:18 pm | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Russ and Scott,
Here is interesting confirmation of what you guys have been bringing to my attention. It came to me from Pitchengine this morning -
"Dealing with Google when it comes to customer service is like talking to a wall. They are a company that believes in automating processes - software über alles. We've gone through policy changes and changes to the way we "police" releases for spam in order to verify that the feed we send to Google is "clean." However, it seems (and it would only be an assumption, considering we have no notice from Google) that they found something they consider a spam effort in our feed or on our site. Despite our best efforts to ban spammers and catch spam releases and "unpublish" them, sometimes things "sneak" through for a while before they are caught.
"All we can do at this point is continue to monitor the situation and gently push (read: harass) Google into putting us back on. I'm monitoring the situation daily and send email to them daily as well. I have yet to hear back."
Based upon what you guys have shared with me, I think Pitchengine should set up individual XML feeds for each of its members. Therefore, the acceptance or rejection of press releases is based upon the individual PR person who sends them. Pitchengine simply hosts the XML feed. In other words, the press release comes from Lamar Morgan - not Pitchengine. Google is choosing to accept or reject content from Lamar Morgan, not Pitchengine.
If I understand this correctly, the individual PR person would be establishing feeds with news sites - not Pitchengine. But, I would go to my Pitchengine XML site to make the transmission.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 03, 2009 3:49 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Yes Google is a pain in the ass and very stubborn. I think it will be their downfall. I had like problems when they banned my site myfilm.com from adwords. They accused me of click fraud [over 3.10 worth of clicks]. In reality my editor clicked on ads he had interest. He thought it was safe because I had his IP blocked. But that was for analytics. Google refused to listen and offered no means for me to block IP addresses of peopeel who worked for me or an IP. In fact if you click on adwords on a companies pages often and spend little time at the destination site and go back to teeh site and click again, that site will get banned.Solution: Never use adwords agin, ever. As to teh XML feed, you do not push it to google, rather they discover it and pull it down.
As to your Post Office example. I have had tow boxes, one since 96 and the other since 1974 [it was my dads business po]. Recently I got locked out. Why, the PO changed teeh rules and I had to show proof of all names associated with the box. Of course this was absurd and they should have grand fathered boxes 10 years or older. It took three days to get my box opened again and then only because I had contacts that assisted me. Bottom line is that Google does what it and has zero obligation to inform anybody. If you do not like it, do not do business with Google.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 04, 2009 6:24 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Reg Charie | | Hi Kathy.. Slumming?
>grin<
I just took a look and there is a lot of thinly disguised ads. They do not seem to be banned as "site:pitchengine.com" returns a lot of pages.
I selected one of teh releases at random, "Grubb & Ellis|Commercial Florida Increases Office Group" and did a Google search for it and #2 is "Grubb & Ellis|Commercial Florida Increases Office Group - Larry ... 4 Sep 2009 ... Grubb & Ellis|Commercial Florida has named Maria Camarinos Hall as associate in the firmís Office Group in Tampa. www.pitchengine.com/.../grubb--elliscommercial-florida-increases-office-group/24619/ - 11 minutes ago "
Even a search for a blatant ad, $8,000 Housing Tax Credit Makes an Impact: Beazer Homes Starts Construction of 13 New Town Homes at Verano at Bartram Park shows it as #1 in a Google search for the headline. Even a search for "New Town Homes at Verano" produces the pitchengine page as #1.
How reliable is the report of Google's banishment?
Reg - NEW DEMO!! Turn photos into paintings http://FantasticMachines.com All You Need is Dotcom-Productions and a Dream. http://dotcom-productions.com 0Grief http://0grief.com/special_hosting_accounts_for_my_ryze_friends.htm CRELoaded websites http://RegCharie.com - SBTT http://thinktank-network.ryze.comPrivate Reply to Reg Charie |
Sep 04, 2009 6:44 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Russ Jackman | | Hi Reg,
I think the banishment is from the Google News feeds, not indexing the site itself ...
But fewer (and hopefully even fewer moving forward) ad-releases in my Google News Alerts!
RussPrivate Reply to Russ Jackman |
Sep 04, 2009 7:02 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Reg,
Below is an excellent article about this PR problem. As I stated earlier, the problem is not really with Google. It's not really with Pitchengine. The problem lies with individual customers who confuse the content of an ad with that of a press release. Of course, this may not be an accident. It may very well be done on purpose. And, if so, that really is a problem. Whereas an ad passes along advertising to hopefully sell products or services, a press release passes along news about a business or activity.
Here's the link - Bad SEO PR Strategies.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 04, 2009 7:16 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Reg Charie | | Ahhh.. thank you. That makes sense. And ya.. less spam please.
I don't really mind these "false front" press releases as they do offer a way to keep a finger on the markets.
The last one I released was for a new release of our Paint Engine software, (a big thing for us), but in effect an effort to draw sales.
Reg - NEW DEMO!! Turn photos into paintings http://FantasticMachines.com All You Need is Dotcom-Productions and a Dream. http://dotcom-productions.com 0Grief http://0grief.com/special_hosting_accounts_for_my_ryze_friends.htm CRELoaded websites http://RegCharie.com - SBTT http://thinktank-network.ryze.comPrivate Reply to Reg Charie |
Sep 04, 2009 10:41 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Queston: How do you feel about putting a press release link in a display ad? Is that a problem for anyone?
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 04, 2009 11:03 pm | | Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | It is dishonest. Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 05, 2009 1:22 pm | | re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
Let's not call the link in the display ad a press release. Let's simply call it "a landing page." Is that less dishonest? Or, put another way, "politically correct?" A landing page exists to collect information on the folks who "land" there. However, if when landing on the landing page you are given further insight into what the site is all about (via a press release), how is that dishonest?
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 05, 2009 4:05 pm | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Simple. Press Release should not have any links embedded. That makes it an advertisement. No matter what you call it. Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 05, 2009 5:21 pm | | re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
If press releases should not have any links in them at all, then am I correct in assuming you are opposed to Social Media Releases? Links to other places in a press release - other sources of content - is what adds to its value. When you receive a newsletter, doesn't it usually have links in it? If a newsletter with links in it does not create a problem, why should a press release with links in it create a problem?
Reg told me some time ago that when he puts a display ad in a printed publication, he includes a link to a landing page. Why? So he can both track the effectiveness of his advertising effort and connect the potential customer with his client. Well, if it is okay to put a link in a display ad to connect buyers and sellers, why is it wrong to put a link in for any reason?
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 05, 2009 6:09 pm | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | A press release is used to inform the public about news. It can be borderline advertisement when announcing a new product or service. Sometimes a special sale may even merit a release, though I think it lacks the test of newsworthiness. A SMR is still part of a press release, no matter how you try and change the words. Yes a link is great to track an ADVERTISMENT. One used to have companies that teared out articles from news papers and that was how you measured how well your PR firm was doing. Nowadays there is little to no accountability. What you are really seeking to do is game the search engines or get free advertisements. A truly skilled PR agent can get their clients in real media with original articles, based on the release.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 05, 2009 11:26 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
I am not trying to "game" the search engines. After all, from the standpoint of the newspaper display ad, the process does not start online. It starts offline within the confines of the newspaper itself. The person who physically reads the ad is going to have to go online and visit the link. Whether some news concern like Google News decides to carry the press release is really irrelevant. The press release will still be found at its source. And, for me, that source the is the SMR site Pitchengine.
When the initial contact is a display ad in a newspaper, the challenge is no different for a PR person than it is for a web designer. In both cases, you want your audience to go online and visit that link. But, will they go? Perhaps it all depends on the content and layout of the ad. I doubt classified ads would work very well. I think you really need some clever "eye candy" - something which classifieds don't normally deliver - to make the marketing magic happen.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 06, 2009 12:02 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | No the purpose of a press release is not to get people to do something. A proper press release has no call to action. Only an advertisement does. Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 06, 2009 12:19 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
Therefore, a display ad that has a landing page link is okay, but a display ad that has an SMR link is not okay. Of course, the fact the person reading the display ad is not likely to know where clicking the link is going to take him is irrelevant.
Well Scott, if you are a fan of landing pages, I have some wonderful news. A Pitchengine SMR comes with a subscription feature built-in. Yes, every Pitchengine SMR is a landing page. Problem solved? I hope so.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 06, 2009 12:43 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | You can have a link to an SMR, that is not an issue. But there should be no links from an SMR to a site. Did not know I had a problem. Can you please tell me what it was?Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 06, 2009 1:48 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
You said, "You can have a link to an SMR, that is not an issue. But there should be no links from an SMR to a site.
Did not know I had a problem. Can you please tell me what it was?"
While I disagree with your statements, I find it hard to believe you can be in agreement with any of it. You are the one who said a link should not be placed in a display ad to a press release, period. Now, you are saying that is okay. Instead, you are saying what should not be done is to place a link from an SMR to a site. That's like saying you should not have links on a web page. After all, an SMR IS a WEB PAGE.
I think you need to re-state what you really mean here. For some reason, I think you do not want PR people incorporating PR with traditional advertising. However, I think that is the way the world is going. Traditional media is decreasing while social media is on the rise. Rather than fight the transition, does it not simply make good sense to incorporate both together? Or, do you advocate rejecting the sharing of such content, altogether?
Why do you suppose it is that so many newspapers, radio stations and TV stations have websites, blogs and podcasts? Answer: they realize there is both a need and a benefit...to them. Mixing traditional media with social media is not dishonest, illegal or immoral. On the contrary, it is innovative. And, it's innovation - not big government handouts that mortgages the lives of future generations - that will restore our nation's economy. I think you should be in favor of such innovation, rather than take a stand against it.
Listen Scott, a way has been found to incorporate both display advertising and a press release into a common public space for the benefit of an audience of eyes. It presents a win/win/win situation - for the product company, the product promoter and the consumer audience. This is not something I invented. I simply see that it is being done online...and working quite well. And no, this is not a SPAM issue. If it was a SPAM issue, you would not have PR firms creating SMR's.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 06, 2009 2:20 am | | Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | HUH? Re-read what I said. UPu can place a link from anywhere to your SMR/Press release, and you should state what the link is for. But when you create a SMR/Press Release and include a link to sell somthing it loses all credability. Looka t news papers and magazines. When a company places what looks like editorial content, but is a paid ad, they must disclose that. >>Why do you suppose it is that so many newspapers, radio stations and TV stations have websites, blogs and podcasts? Answer: they realize there is both a need and a benefit...to them. Mixing traditional media with social media is not dishonest, illegal or immoral. On the contrary, it is innovative. And, it's innovation - not big government handouts that mortgages the lives of future generations - that will restore our nation's economy. I think you should be in favor of such innovation, rather than take a stand against it
Again HUH. What are you talking about. I never said I was against any of that. You can have ads next to content, but do you realy thing people want to read ads instead of news?
Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 06, 2009 3:01 am | | re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
When the Hillside Singers got together on that hillside to sing about teaching the world to sing in perfect harmony, they were selling the idea of international friendship by way of sharing a bottle of Coca-Cola. That was definitely an ad. Yet, it became newsworthy. And, I believe in a small way may have helped to bring the Vietnam War to an end.
When Coca-Cola announced in a press release that it had purchased Minute Maid Orange Juice, that was news - especially to shareholders of both Coca-Cola and Minute Maid.
Now, could both the Coca-Cola ad and the Coca-Cola press release exist in the same online space effectively and not cause a problem? I think they can. In fact, I think one can successfuly be linked to the other. I think you can successfully go from a display ad to a press release - especially when the press release is an SMR.
After all, if you look in just about any printed publication, you are likely to find both stories and advertisements featuring the same businesses. This is nothing brand new. It is simply a new twist on an old idea - a business that both advertises itself and provides news about itself at the same time and in the same proximity.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 06, 2009 2:58 pm | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | When tehy had news reports about the Hillside singers, it was newsorthy because they had done somthing that was new. They did not say 10% off your next coke purchase. Many trade publications do in fact write an article because an ad was taken. Those publications are not trusted by readers. My client Watchtime Magazine is for luxury watches. They will never write a story based on advertisements. They are very trusted by their readers. A competing magazine does nothing but rewrite press releases. No one trusts what they write about. Does it happen? Yes. In my local paper was an article on how to deal with the death of a family member. The first paragraph stated how you should trust the funeral home to help you. I then realized the entire section of that paper was filled with ads for the death industry. Now I know not to trust what they report.
You seem like you are upset that your business model was changed on you. You need to create a plan where you have more control. My sources tell me that Google decided taht pitchengine was promoting advertorials instead of news. A product launch is news, a discount is not.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 07, 2009 12:38 am | | re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
I agree that a product lunch is news and that a discount is not news. I also agree that some folks on Pitchengine are doing it a disservice. But, do you throw the baby out with the bathwater? If you ask Google News, I suppose the answer is "Yes." A few rotten apples can indeed spoil the whole barrel. Keep in mind that you have a lot of high-priced wire services who, although not directly in competition with SMR services, would most likely want them to disappear. Not everyone is happy with Internet innovation. There are some folks who are very opposed to changing the way the world works - even if in the end it is really in their best interest.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 07, 2009 1:06 am | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Lamar what is the PR release that you deem to be news-worthy? Perhaps you could post something as an example.
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 07, 2009 1:33 am | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | In civil court if you commit prejury even once the judge can assume everything you say is a lie.In this case pitchengine.com allowed non-news items to get through. Google may not want to risk their reputation because one minor comapny can not control their users.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 07, 2009 1:38 am | | re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Scott has a great point and one that we find in the context of social media groups is the defining difference between being a person whose information is relied upon by those interested in such things, as being at least useful, interesting or of some kind of value ... and the spammer brigade.
Whether a press release can 'sneak by' Google or not - why risk ruining one's reputation? Well of course there are many who believe that any eyes on a story is worth any price. They are the types I typically don't follow and often block if I see evidence of that kind of approach.
Ultimately, it comes down to your values, not what other people will allow.
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 07, 2009 2:41 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Lindy,
Can you believe it, I am in agreement with both you and Scott. Google News may indeed be protecting itself from spammers by not allowing Pitchengine releases to be involved. But, we should not deduce that because some people choose to SPAM on Pitchengine that Pitchengine is a SPAM engine itself. There are some ISP's that think blocking the delivery of Evite.com invitations is in the best interest of their customers, too. But, that does not mean that Evite.com is a SPAM engine.
If you become familiar with both services you will see that both are very worthwhile services. Both really do a wonderful job - provided you use them properly.
By the way, Pitchengine recently got on the Reuters News Service. Now, that is a pretty impressive service to become affiliated with. Let's hope the SPAM problem gets handled and goes away.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 07, 2009 2:49 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | The fact remains, I don't want my news polluted with spam.
By spam read - promotional pieces, ads, press releases etc.
Lindy
Private Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 07, 2009 3:25 am | | Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Lamar, we are not teh ones you need to convince call Google 866-246-6453 Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 07, 2009 4:32 am | | re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
I have called Google. I may call them more often. I think it would be nice to see Pitchengine reinstated and have them implement a better means to filter out the SPAM.
The SPAM problem exists here on Ryze, too. But, that does not stop us from posting to the network. You get bulk mail from the Post Office. Is that not also a form of SPAM? Well, are you going to stop using the Post Office? I doubt it.
Lindy seems to want to live in a "spam free" zone. If you can find one, be my guest. It would not surprise me if you were to find SPAM posts on just about every news-related service. However, I have no desire to spend time looking for SPAM to prove my point.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 07, 2009 7:49 am | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | You're quite right, I do want to live in a "spam free" zone. Largely I manage that. Gmail works really well on that front. Of the things that I sign up for, well I asked for it, and I'm working on eliminating newsletters now from anyone who just sends out sales crap instead of information that is useful.
Does anyone want a life full of spam? Do you, Lamar?
Lindy
Private Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 07, 2009 3:03 pm | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Good keep calling them [google]. On Ryze spam [you should use lower case for the spelling] is policed by the owner of the Network and by Ryze Admin. It also is more managable because total uses on Ryze per day are less than 1 second on Google. With bulk mail it does not cost you anything nor does it dilute your serachg efforts. Also there is currenty a nill that would make a "do not mail" list, similar to the "do not call" list that now exists. BTW Lamar, would you welcome phone calls to your phone all day long with 'press releases' for mostly discounts on travel, with a few real news items? Perhaps the reason why you think it is great is because you do not use google taht often, generally you ask us to do taht for you. On another thread you explain that you want answers NOW and expect people to help for free. I guess taht is one way to keep your costs down.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 07, 2009 8:07 pm | | re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
I use Google so much it is actually my home page.
Since you brought up my wanting folks to contact me with answers to questions for FREE, I should explain what I have discovered. It's actually an online service. It is called Aardvark. It is extremely frustrating to attend public town hall meetings where Robert's Rules of Order are invoked constantly to demonstrate knowledge, but rarely to really accomplish something significant. Who wants to go to a meeting simply to have a meeting? You go to a meeting to get something significant accomplished. Right?
If Aardvark can actually deliver what it says it can deliver - and do it for free - I think it will transform the world even more than Twitter has done. For that reason, I am eager to become a user and find out how well it works.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 07, 2009 8:13 pm | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Reg Charie | | Legally, meetings are often called to meet legal requirements and maintain the status quo.
Reg - NEW DEMO!! Turn photos into paintings http://FantasticMachines.com All You Need is Dotcom-Productions and a Dream. http://dotcom-productions.com 0Grief http://0grief.com/special_hosting_accounts_for_my_ryze_friends.htm CRELoaded websites http://RegCharie.com - SBTT http://thinktank-network.ryze.comPrivate Reply to Reg Charie |
Sep 07, 2009 8:23 pm | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Lamar, Just because you made google your home page does not mean you use it. Often you ask questions that can be found with a simple search. One is compelled to conclude that if you do use google, you are not using it correctly. What does Aardvark have to with this thread? Why are you hyping it so much? And what will you do when they start charging for tehir service?Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 07, 2009 8:30 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Reg,
You said, "Legally, meetings are often called to meet legal requirements and maintain the status quo."
Absolutely correct! The Middletown Area Town Hall Meetings are done in compliance with the California Brown Act.
But, why have the Brown Act in the first place? Answer: To empower the public to help the county government GTD (Get Things Done). If the meetings DO NOT Get Things Done, then there is a problem.
All I would like to see is less futility and more productivity. And, from what I have been reading online, Aardvark may help.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 07, 2009 8:45 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | The problem is the PEOLPLE, they need a strong leader. A long nosed insectivore mammal will not help. Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 08, 2009 1:24 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
What any group that gets together for a town hall meeting needs - whether it is here in California or in New Zealand - is knowledge. They need to know HOW to find answers to questions. If you do not know HOW to do something, at the very least you should know who to ask. But, out here where I live, people think they know how to do things, but they demonstrate otherwise. And, this is actually demonstrated to me repeatedly...over and over again. You have heard the saying, "People who don't LEARN from the mistakes of history are destined to repeat them." That unfortunately sums up this community in a big way.
Think about this. We have a restaurant here that is losing money, big-time. They have been asked by me (and others) for three years to please put pictures of their food in their menus to help attract more customer traffic. They have been asked to improve the inside appearance of the restaurant - place attractive pictures on the wall that showcase in an attractive fashion this gated, bedroom community. Instead, the restaurant showcasses old paintings of the Kelseyville Pear Festival. Kelseyville is 45 minutes away from here. It's not in Hidden Valley Lake. Believe it or not, the restaurant just recently came out with a new menu. Guess what? Still, no pictures of food.
Now, I should point out that despite the fact the restaurant is losing money, it is not likely to go out-of-business. Why? Because it is owned and operated by the resident homeowners association. The loss in revenue will simply be passed along as increased dues to the homeowners here.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 08, 2009 1:36 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Lamar if you want pictures of food, go to McDonalds.
I've never been to an even half decent restaurant and found pictures on their menu.
In what way do you believe pictures in the menu are going to drag more bums in to sit on the seats?
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 08, 2009 3:31 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Lindy,
Some folks think the "Field of Dreams" notion is real. That is to say, "If you build it, they will come." If you just build a restaurant, people will show up to fill it. While that may be the case some places, that is not the case here in Hidden Valley Lake, CA. No, if you want customers for a restaurant here, you need to market your restaurant to the local community. And, you need to market to them in a way that is appealing.
The Greenview Restaurant does not do that. It expects customers to show up simply because it is the only restaurant that is connected to the only golf course in the community. The fact that most of the residents in Hidden Valley Lake do not play golf has apparently not bothered the restaurant manager. While this restaurant is actually the best venue in the community for large group meetings, it does nothing to promote that fact. In November of 2007, three members of the local business association approached the restaurant manager and asked that the restaurant become a Wi-Fi hot spot. In return for becoming a Wi-Fi hot spot, the group would agree to hold weekly breakfast meetings at the restaurant. The restaurant manager refused to comply with the request. Consequently, it lost out a great deal of business.
Yes, even when people give this restaurant suggestions - like putting pictures of food on the menus, decorating the interior of the restaurant, etc., it's ignored. Believe it or not, to advertise its food the restaurant uses scotch tape and a piece of paper attached to the back of a cash register. I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty pathetic.
The restaurant management here is misguided. They don't care about their own customers. They don't care about their own employees. This is not an accident that is waiting to happen. This restaurant is a disaster that has already occurred and no one seems to care.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 08, 2009 3:38 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Lamar, none of that explains how pictures on a menu bring in customers.
You might want to consider what you post about what other people think or don't think as you perceive from their actions or inaction. Your poor opinion relative to others, is not necessarily what you want coming up on Google in your home town.
LindyPrivate Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 08, 2009 4:57 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Lindy,
A restaurant is losing money. People who live in the area have made suggestions. One of those suggestions is put pictures of your food in the restaurant menus. This is not rocket science. This is easy. In other words, make the menu of the what the restaurant serves to the public look appealing. In addition, they have suggested that the pictures on the wall be updated and relate this the restaurant's community, Hidden Valley Lake - not a Kelseyville Festival from years gone by, which is not nearby.
And, since this restaurant's dining room is the biggest meeting facility (next to the country club) in the entire area, it has also been suggested that the facility become a Wi-Fi hot spot. There are three restaurants nexst door to this country club restaurant that are Wi-Fi hot spots. But, they lack the space to accommodate large crowds. The Greenview has the space...and it spends most days and evenings unoccupied.
What's really strange is that even if the Greenview continues to lose money, it will no doubt continue to exit. Why? Because the homeowners association will simply increase the dues of the homeowners to see that the Greenview Restaurant continues to back up the small minority of golfers who do occasionally use the restaurant. This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. Will it continue? Sadly, I think it will.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 08, 2009 5:36 am | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lindy Asimus | | Lamar you are jumping to solutions.
The restaurant, if it needs anything, needs a Discovery review, to establish the current position and the aims of the management long before any marketing plan and implementation.
Pictures on a menu, and Wi-fi are the solution to nothing that has been put by management as a problem they have.
Pictures on a menu and wi-fi do not constitute anything that has the capacity to in and of itself add one single client or one extra dollar to the business.
Now they may or may not be useful in the scheme of things down the road, but all that should be determined after outcomes and current position have been ascertained... and someone has cut you a check to work with them.
Lindy
Private Reply to Lindy Asimus |
Sep 08, 2009 2:50 pm | | Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Lamar, You are doing exactly what you accuse your:Town Hall people, the restaurant etc of doing. ONly your opinion counts. Only you are right. Pictures of food in the menu does nothing to attract peopel into the establishment. It may increase revenue, but I doubt it. I have eating at some of the best places in New York City, and have rarely seen pictures of food in the menu. In fact Peter Lugers, the best steak house in the world, did not even give you menus until the 90's. Lutece, no pictures. Tavern on the Green, no pictures.
Perhaps you feel Friday's is fine dining. [BTW at the original no pictures and no crap on the walls, just blue paint amd great potato skins]
I suggest you get on the board of the homeowners association to make changes.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 08, 2009 4:26 pm | | re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Reg Charie | | Lamar, In my, soon to be, 68 years of living I have discovered that if a restaurant does not do well it is usually because the prices are too high or the food sucks.
People will say that location counts for a lot, but in the case of a small community this is not quite the same as in a large city.
Word gets around and if they were indeed providing either value or an excellent dining experience people would drive for miles and miles.
Since the restaurant is subsidized by member's fees, there is no real pressure on management to become successful. In fact doing so would just lead to more work for staff and management.
It seems that there would only be a few eating establishments in a community of your size. You could sit outside each for a day counting how many enter. This would give you an idea of the menus that attract your residents.
I think pictures of food belong in a fast food outlet. Wi-fi *may* attract but are these the kind of people they want to attract?
I would think a golf club's restaurant would be a class operation and not want to cater to those sitting around surfing the net. Has the membership been polled asking it they would want a hotspot there?
Reg - NEW DEMO!! Turn photos into paintings http://FantasticMachines.com All You Need is Dotcom-Productions and a Dream. http://dotcom-productions.com 0Grief http://0grief.com/special_hosting_accounts_for_my_ryze_friends.htm CRELoaded websites http://RegCharie.com - SBTT http://thinktank-network.ryze.comPrivate Reply to Reg Charie |
Sep 08, 2009 4:47 pm | | re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Scott,
If you have a fine dining establishment with plenty of customers, you are absolutely correct. Pictures in menus are not needed. Pictures on the wall showcasing the restaurant or area are not needed. But, if your own customers...your own employees have been urging you for THREE YEARS to upgrade the restaurant's image and you are $14,000 in debt for just one month, I think action should be taken.
If the only monthly publication that regularly spouts off what the restaurant has to offer offers a contest to give it a new name and goes from The HVLA View to the HVLA Views, I think there is a problem - especially if the declared winner of the contest never actually entered the contest. You know what declaring someone a contest winner who never even entered the contest is called? It's called "fraud." And, you know what is even more pathetic? People in this community know it and they don't care.
Why is this restaurant losing money? It's not that the restaurant does not have pictures of food in its menus. It's because the restaurant refuses to listen to what its community wants and needs. The restaurant sets its own agenda based on what it wants to do...not on what the community demonstrates it needs. The Greenview Restaurant focus's inward. A good restaurant's focus is outward.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 08, 2009 5:03 pm | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | Reg,
The Greenview Restaurant did do a survey back in December of 2007. But, they could not even do that right. They made it hard on the public and themselves. They could have freely used the Internet to process the data, but they chose to do it hard and stupid way. Individuals had to cut out a form from the monthly magazine, fill it our, drive to the restaurant and deposit the form in a box slot. Then, someone had to manually process the feedback. Who knows where it went from there. And no, a question about Wi-Fi was not even on the survey - even though just a few weeks earlier three members of the local business association met with the restaurant manager specifically requesting it.
The last time I was in a conversation with the restaurant manager about Wi-Fi, he told me it was unacceptable because of potential credit card number theft. He thinks someone is going to access his customers credit card numbers through his direct cable line for business transactions. He does not realize the public has no way of accessing that private line. Now, were he doing credit card transactions on his Wi-Fi setup, that is indeed possible - especially if there is no VPN (Virtual Private Network) set up with the Wi-Fi connection. But, the restaurant manager does not understand such things. He is happy and content in his ignorance. Meanwhile, the restaurant continues to lose business.
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 08, 2009 5:04 pm | | re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Having a step day that actully supervised Country Club restaurant as the head of the overall home owners committee, he told me the only reason why they make money is that members must spend X dollars a year, I also just asked a client who is on teh board of the West Side Tennis club [Yes the original home to the US Open -BTW I can see the blimp outside my window at Arthur Ashe Stadium] and he sadi almost the same thing. He also owns a restaurant. They both stated that no outside people are allowed without a member present.
Many people may not know it is open to the public.
I still say get involved with the committee.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 08, 2009 5:09 pm | | re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Lamar, He has real reasons to be concerned. TJ Max, Dave and Busters and Ruby Tuesday's were all hacked from WiFi. He does need to be educated, I am not convinced the WiFi Comapnmy can not be hacked by a skilled person. Also youmust now have two differant connections for PCI compliance. That adds to the cost.Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 08, 2009 7:05 pm | | re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Reg Charie | | I would also be most concerned about security and have to agree with Scott, a separate internet connection would be wise. $20 a month for a reasonable connection ... My ISP gives me a 20MBS down of $5 a month (Added to my gignormously costly TV subscription.)
I was out in my car and my passenger had a handheld and was looking for a hotspot. We found 2 immediately.. An internet cafe about a block away and a quality inn about 3 blocks away. It is not only customers that get access, it is every person that "sniffs" you out..
And I am not sure about legalities.
Who would be responsible if a customer using your service were hacked while using your service?
Here is an article about setting up hotspots. Pay attention to the security issues. http://etutorials.org/Networking/802.11+security.+wi-fi+protected+access+and+802.11i/Part+III+Wi-Fi+Security+in+the+Real+World/Chapter+14.+Public+Wireless+Hotspots/Security+Issues+in+Public+Hotspots/
Reg - NEW DEMO!! Turn photos into paintings http://FantasticMachines.com All You Need is Dotcom-Productions and a Dream. http://dotcom-productions.com 0Grief http://0grief.com/special_hosting_accounts_for_my_ryze_friends.htm CRELoaded websites http://RegCharie.com - SBTT http://thinktank-network.ryze.comPrivate Reply to Reg Charie |
Sep 08, 2009 7:19 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | One of my clients network was being used for spaming and a server that had dubious pages and porn. They [FBI] traced the signal to an upstairs apartment. That apartment was leased to a grand mother who only knew her grandson placed a computer in a little used closet. I just found this out when he told me I was write about securing his network. He felt taaht WEP would be enough and he only used teeh wireless for surfing the net. Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
Sep 08, 2009 9:24 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 | | This is one amazing thread. We have gone from Google News and Pitchengine to the Greenview Restaurant's lack of marketing to the merits of Public Wi-Fi. Where to next?
Lamar Morgan CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing 707-709-8605 Need PR?...Call Lamar! Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901 |
Sep 08, 2009 9:31 pm | | re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Google Creating Problems in PR World | # |
Scott Wolpow | | Lamar, you brought it off topic a number of times. For some reason you now think the answer to everything is Aarvark and you inject it into every thread. That is how Pitchengine.com lost their validity. Private Reply to Scott Wolpow |
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