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EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud.Views: 1054
Sep 30, 2009 12:39 amEV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud.#

Ron Sam
Ref: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=859599&confid=546

This Friday I plan to go to the Altcarexpo in SM.
Details here: http://www.altcarexpo.com/

I'm disappointed disillusioned at the slow pace of the makers to come out with a PHEV or EV. A three year old story (http://3.ly/1Iw) has me wondering what the holdup is.
It can't be just lithium batteries.

The movie, "Who Killed the Electric Vehicle?"
http://3.ly/yBI
showed that we had EV's in 1995.

When I looked at the list of Exhibitors (http://3.ly/lAj) none of the companies that said they would be out with a product are showing up. That would be Phoenix MC, Altairnano, AFS with their 150 mpg hybrid.

Hmmmmmm




I'm hoping to see Ed Begley Jr. because he was suppose to get a Phoenix SUT at the 2nd AltCarExpo two years ago. I haven't seen any news on that either.
Except this PR - http://3.ly/wUD


I was hoping to get one of the Phoenix SUT or SUVs too but didn't want to wait, so got a Prius.
I'm also hoping to find a easy DIY conversion kit to make my Prius Gen3 into a PHEV and not interfere with warranties.

Private Reply to Ron Sam

Sep 30, 2009 2:14 amre: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud.#

Thomas Holford
Ron Sam sayeth:

" was hoping to get one of the Phoenix SUT or SUVs too but didn't want to wait, so got a Prius.
I'm also hoping to find a easy DIY conversion kit to make my Prius Gen3 into a PHEV and not interfere with warranties."


Allow me to engage in a bit of free lance market research.

As a transportation consumer, I basically want a vehicle that is safe, comfortable, gets me and my necessary dependents and possessions from A to B reliably, is economical to operate, and is affordable.

I really don't care if it is gasoline, diesel, flexfuel, hybrid, fuel cell, momentum wheel, compressed air, electric, solar, coal, nuclear, fusion, warp-drive, or hamster powered.

It's just something that I don't invest any mental energy in.

As a student of consumer behavior, I would be curious to know: what are your top three reasons for wanting an electic vehicle?

T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 01, 2009 12:29 amre: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud.#

Ron Sam
Thomas,

1. My commutes will have 0% CO2 emissions
2. I despise the history of oil monopoly
3. It gives me the option to put up solar or wind to get free fuel

Without a conventional ICE there is little to wear out with exception to tires, brakes and possibly batteries.



The Prius gen 3 uses synthetic oil 0W20 weight and may be changing the interval from 5k to 10k. I do my own oil changes and would like to see it go to 10k like BMW did.

I'm sick of cars falling apart and need repairs or maintenance. It use to be fun, when I was a teen and did engine swaps, but not anymore. I just want clean, quiet and efficient in my vehicle.

Ron

ps: I did find out that Ed Begley got his Phoenix SUT
It's white; http://3.ly/Eo3
but Phoenix is rumored to be bankrupt.
http://3.ly/Ok3

Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 01, 2009 3:32 amre: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud.#

Thomas Holford
Ron Sam sayeth:

"1. My commutes will have 0% CO2 emissions
2. I despise the history of oil monopoly
3. It gives me the option to put up solar or wind to get free fuel

Without a conventional ICE there is little to wear out with exception to tires, brakes and possibly batteries."

Interesting. I would have never guessed your reasons.

Which once again confirms the wisdom of my Marketing professor in MBA school:

"The market is rational, but not necessarily logical."

Meaning that the market (or consumers in the market) will have rational reasons for doing what they do. It just won't be possible to figure out what their reasons are by logical deduction. You have to ask them.


Thanks.

T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 04, 2009 7:55 pmre: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud.#

Ron Sam
Tango EV  ~Pondering the day at the Expo~rws

The most asked question: 
What was the most interesting thing at the AltCarExpo this year?


After perusing the many exhibits indoors and the live drives outside, I would have to say the TANGO EV was the most exciting thing to hit the Expo.

It is a SKINNY electric car measuring just:
8.5 ft. long
39 in. wide  
60in. tall

http://ecomodder.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/rotate-1.jpg

Weights:  3,000 pounds
with 2,000 pounds of the 3.000 LBS.. under the driver seat made up of 25 lithium batteries

Body construction of Carbon Fiber and Kevlar.
Has an integral Chrome-moly tube roll frame under the skin
The chassis is made of stainless steel - it won't rust ever.

Performance is 0-60 mph in 4 seconds!!!
Standing 1/4 mile in 12 sec.
Top speed: 135 mph


Driving Range: 80 miles avg.  (40-200 miles /battery types)
Charging time: ~ 3 hrs.

More specs here  in a Pdf

link: www.commutercars.com

videos

Phone: (509)  624-0762  (Spokane, Washington)
Inventor:  Rick & Brian Woodbury  (father and son team developing it over 20 yrs.)
Patents:  U.S. Patent 6,328,121

http://www.evworld.com/images/tango3.jpg
Rick Woodbury (center) with his son, Bryan (right) show off their Tango prototype to electric car dealer, Alastair Dodwell. After debuting the Tango at the Los Angeles Auto show in January 2004, Woodbury is starting to take orders for a luxury version of the $85,000 electric hotrod.


Advantages: Maneuverability in traffic (even gridlock), parking space required is minimal, no oil dependency and no air quality issues.

I saw this EV burn rubber in the parking lot!  When I spoke to Rick he mention the Tango he was demonstrating here belonged to Sergey Brin (Google owner with Larry Page).  Another Tango is owned by George Clooney.  One question I got to ask him was, "What  about crash stability if considering the length to width ration and getting T-boned?"  His answer was that it has an integral roll cage that has a  5-star NHTSA static rollover resistance rating which is safer that many more cars on the road today, plus the low center of mass making it very stable.

Check it out. It cost $108K for the kit and takes 8-hours to assemble..  Or the fully built TANGO with lithium long range batteries is about $150K.  Rick said that with high quantity build the price could drop to $10,000.

Ron



Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 05, 2009 1:36 amre: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud.#

Thomas Holford
Ron Sam sayeth:

"It is a SKINNY electric car measuring just:
8.5 ft. long
39 in. wide
60in. tall"

This puppy is just small enough that it might be able to drive under the trailer of a semi.

I bet someone will be tempted to try it to in order to get to the exit ramp in a traffic jam.

What happens to 2000 pounds of fully charged lithium batteries then they are run over by the rear wheels of an eighteen wheeler? How many HAZMAT teams will it take to clean up the mess?

T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 05, 2009 2:50 amre: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud.#

Ken Hilving
The issue of any light vehicle passing under a semitrailer is addressed in Part 571.223: Motor Carrier Vehicle Safety Standards here in the US.

The concern over the batteries of an EV falls under 571.305 Standard No. 305; Electric-powered vehicles: electrolyte spillage and electrical shock protection

All of the federal regulations associated with vehicles can be found at U.S. Department of Transportation, Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration.

Private Reply to Ken Hilving

Oct 05, 2009 5:48 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic Aud#

Thomas Holford
Ken Hilving sayeth:

"The issue of any light vehicle passing under a semitrailer is addressed in Part 571.223: Motor Carrier Vehicle Safety Standards here in the US."


Great! I feel better knowing that the Federal Government has thought of this.

Was this addressed during the Bush administration or the Obama administration?

T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 06, 2009 3:23 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica Civic#

Reg Charie
That is going to be one squirrely car to drive. With the power to go from 0 to 60 in 4 seconds it is going to overpower the narrow and short wheelbase quite easily.

It is quite tall for its width also, and I would worry about tipping over when doing fast sharp corners

I would much rather go for the Tesla roadster

"Acceleration is strong, in fact better than any gasoline powered automobile I've ever tested, and as I found myself sucked back into my seat, I imagined that this is what fighter pilots must feel like when they're performing multi-G rolls."

http://www.gizmag.com/tesla-roadster-test-drive/13033/

Reg - NEW DEMO!! Turn photos into paintings http://FantasticMachines.com
All You Need is Dotcom-Productions and a Dream. http://dotcom-productions.com
0Grief http://0grief.com/special_hosting_accounts_for_my_ryze_friends.htm
CRELoaded websites http://RegCharie.com - SBTT http://thinktank-network.ryze.com

Private Reply to Reg Charie

Oct 06, 2009 5:58 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica C#

Ron Sam
Tango vs. Tesla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiS4t8TMlI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0biSmCktVY

Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 06, 2009 4:19 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Monica C#

Thomas Holford
Reg Charie sayeth:

"It is quite tall for its width also, and I would worry about tipping over when doing fast sharp corners."


With the driver perched on top of 2000 pounds of lithium batteries, the thing probably has the same center of gravity as a manhole cover.


T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 06, 2009 4:33 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa Moni#

Thomas Holford
Ron Sam sayeth:

"Tango vs. Tesla"


The Tango also looks to be quite massive for it's volume.

Definitely not a floater, which might be a concern since there has reportedly been a guerrilla campaign in Holland with humorless Dutch anti-progressives physically picking up Smartcars and dumping them into canals:

http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/707-amsterdam-smart-car-canals

"Amsterdam, July 25, 2009 [DutchAmsterdam.nl] — Amsterdam police is deeply concerned about a new craze in which vandals toss parked cars from the Smart brand into the city’s canals."

This would never happen with a Buick.

T. Holford



Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 06, 2009 8:38 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Santa#

Ron Sam
Tesla was also at the AltCarExpo but they were not demoing the car. Just Q&A with the reps with a orange colored Tesla on the floor. I think they are having money problems.

I think the Smartcars are stupid.

Ron

Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 06, 2009 10:29 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd @ Sa#

Thomas Holford
Ron Sam sayeth:

"I think they are having money problems."

They probably can't spend the money as fast as the government is shoving it at them.

http://gas2.org/2009/06/23/govt-picks-a-winner-tesla-gets-465-million/2/


T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 07, 2009 7:58 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and 3rd#

Ron Sam
Consensus amoung any/all EV related biz at the AltCarExpo, in past few years has been financially 'tough'.

Still looks like money problems, for Tesla, to me.

Tesla built EVs for the very rich, not the average family man. How large a segment is that? We're talking Clooney's

Now, they just are getting a $528M loan from US for
a not yet designed EV in the $40k range. Does Tesla have any choice taking the loan with this directive?

related-
http://3.ly/eYJ
http://3.ly/iTy
http://3.ly/uny

Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 07, 2009 5:22 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd and#

Thomas Holford
As I read all these articles on EV's and the vast amounts of (mostly taxpayer) money being thrown at them, the same questions keep cropping up over and over:

1.) Why is this so hard to do?

2.) Why is it taking so long?

3.) How come it is so expensive?

Eggheads have been promising for decades that "alternative energy" was on the horizon, and it wouldn't be long before we were all commuting with jetpacks or teleporters.

It seems to me that the eggheads have a very poor record for accurate predictions.

T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 07, 2009 8:30 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct. 2nd#

Ron Sam
Thomas,
After attending the 2nd and 4th AltCarExpo's I'm asking the same questions (as are hundred of thousands)!

Most of the answer is in the movie, 'Who Killed the Electric Car?" http://3.ly/6ys

Electric cars were here in mid 1990s but nearly all of them ended up at a cruncher yard - destroyed. The makers of those EVs didn't have a believable explanation. Oil cos. were blamed. It would seem they have a good motive and try to prevent success of the electric car.

Many cities use to have electric buses with overhead wires, they are all gone. What happened to make them disappear? When I was in Northern Europe a few weeks ago, they still use them. Why is that?

I think Metrolink (LA) runs on CNG, but not sure.

Battery technology is not meeting the criteria for drivers use to ICE driven vehicles. (Have you ever driven a Prius or any hybrid?) It's a different mindset. You buy a EV for the range you want. That can be anything from a golf cart to a Tesla. If you look at the Tango lit they have various battery packs for low and high use.

Bolivia is not friendly with US and they have the worlds largest source of lithium ore. We have some too, but not as much as Bolivia and China. So other battery chemistry are being developed or always developed. Lithium Iron Phosphate http://3.ly/B1g looks promising. It will need to be balanced with electric motor and controller needs as well as advanced chargers that can revive the batteries in least bit of time and energy.

There's a AC or DC motor control design war. Toyota Prius used DC PM motors and they are less that $30k for the new hybrids. Whereas AC Propulsion uses an AC motor and control system and the E-Box sells for ~ $90k. I like the DC system and Hymotion and others have PHEV kits that use Lithium Ion batteries for the prius that should yield 100 mpg due to more use of the electric mode.

Schwarzenegger promoted a H-Vee hybrid that gets over 100mpg that is made by Rasler(?) It has a full time EV drive good for about 50 miles of travel. If you don't do that mileage that day you just recharge in a few hours at home. If you go beyond 50 miles a gas engine starts and is used to generate power to charge the batteries in as little as 15 minutes and then you go another 50 miles. Arnold thinks this is the way to go with a big vehicle.

I was hoping to get a Phoenix SUT like Ed Begley Jr. but the company is having financial problems and a rich Arab financier by the name of Al Yousuf has made a major drop of $$$ (2007 $40M) into this company in Ontario CA. I think he has control now but whether or not he makes moves to get the SUT on the market as promised years ago is a wait and see.


The AltCar showed many new cars that run on natural gas. You get a dispenser to hook up to your home's gas pipe and it compresses it into the high pressure tank in the vehicle. I've heard that the early models didn't have much power and seem sloggy on the road. So much that sales have dropped off for the Honda GX model. But if your looking for convenience and abundant source of energy this might be the way to go.

The H2 cars with fuel cells were there and my main objection is the lack of fueling stations. They know it too.

For commercial vehicles there was a company in El Segundo, Vision something that had a big rig designed with a H2 tank (scary in size) Fuel cell, Lithium batteries and a hybrid drive-train. His niche market was the LA harbor where big rigs haul away containers coming off ships. That area of town is one of the most polluted. They even have a three-minute law that if a diesel truck is standing and idling for more than 3 minutes they have to shut off.

Goudy Ford and other vendors were promoting propane for big trucks V-8s V-10s using LPI or liquid propane injection. This would be great if every contractor got their truck converted to run LPI. The engine will last longer and very little pollutants (mostly h2O).

Another 'wait and see' I saw at the AltCar show and sort of 'entertaining' if you know any fluid dynamics. The guy was not very friendly when I took photos of his charts, I was thinking he was a fake. re: " ... it takes 10 hp to create 81 hp ..." http://3.ly/0Fh
At first I thought it was a flywheel inertia system.
Play his audio and see if you believe his explanation.

So maybe the hybrid is the way to go until the EV has time to optimize the design to something that is cost effective to the average consumer. The Prius I recently got, gets 4 time the mpg my truck gets. Now it opens up many avenues of freedom for me.

Ron

Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 18, 2009 12:59 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo Oct.#

Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901

Ron,

Were there any vehicles at that car show designed to run on compressed air? I understand that engine power can be acquired through the compression of air. You do not need a flammable liquid in a vehicle to make it run.

Lamar Morgan
CDMM - Synergistic Business Marketing
(707)709-8605
Need PR?...Call Lamar!

Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901

Oct 20, 2009 10:06 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo O#

Ron Sam
I did not see any cars that run on that principle Lamar. I do know of the French design that originated that idea.

It's just my gut feeling that the compressor in reverse would require massive volume of compressed air and that miles between fill ups would be impractical due to the short distance.

You might want to research it more yourself here:
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&safe=off&num=50&newwindow=1&q=compressed+air+car+hoax&aq=7&aqi=g10&oq=compressed+air+car+&fp=2755c6b3e9b2e9

Ron

Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 27, 2009 7:34 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarEx#

Ron Sam


re: What happens to 2000 pounds of fully charged lithium batteries then they are run over by the rear wheels of an eighteen wheeler? How many HAZMAT teams will it take to clean up the mess?


Not good: Tesla Roadster, Toyota Prius and VW Touareg meet with disastrous results






Ouch.

A three-way crash between a Tesla Roadtser, Toyota Prius and a VW Touareg didn't leave a pretty scene behind, but it appears that at least the Tesla driver walked away with only minor bruises. We don't know what happened to the occupants of the other vehicles. According to Autopia, it seems that the Roadster was allegedly stopped when the Prius hit it from behind – going about 50 mph – and pushed the Tesla under the SUV (note the piece of the EV in the VW's rear end). We'll just say it again: Ouch.


Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 27, 2009 11:16 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltC#

Thomas Holford
Ron Sam sayeth:

> According to Autopia, it seems that the Roadster was allegedly stopped when the Prius hit it from behind – going about 50 mph . . .


It seems to me to be a clear case of inter-vehicle jealousy among different species of EV's.


Regards,

T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Oct 28, 2009 2:12 am re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo > Exploding lithium batteries?#

Ron Sam
Thomas,

I'd say that Tesla did a nice job of engineering/protecting it's lithium batteries. I don't see a bit of them scattered about the road.

Seems to me if that were a gasoline roadster there would be fuel all over the road and maybe even flamed up a bit.


Here is a larger pic of the scene with the Prius removed.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/tesla-roadster/3363-crash-euro-spec-roadster-vs-vw-suv.html

Ron

Private Reply to Ron Sam

Oct 28, 2009 2:51 amre: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo > Exploding lithium batteries?#

Thomas Holford
Ron Sam sayeth:

> I'd say that Tesla did a nice job of engineering/protecting it's lithium batteries. I don't see a bit of them scattered about the road.


Google search: laptop fire battery or batteries

Result: about 4,830,000 English pages for laptop fire battery OR batteries


Sounds to me like a gasoline powered laptop might actually be safer.

T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

Nov 03, 2009 1:26 amre: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo > Exploding lithium batteries?#

Ken Hilving
Google search: gasoline fire OR fires

Result: about 11,700,000 English pages for gasoline fire OR fires

Good luck with your "gasoline powered laptop might actually be safer" approach.

Private Reply to Ken Hilving

Nov 03, 2009 3:07 amre: re: re: re: EV's again -- 4th. AltCarExpo > Exploding lithium batteries?#

Thomas Holford
Ken Hilving sayeth:

> Google search: gasoline fire OR fires

Result: about 11,700,000 English pages for gasoline fire OR fires

Good luck with your "gasoline powered laptop might actually be safer" approach.



Gasoline is INTENDED to cause combustion. It is used in "internal combustion engines".

Lithium batteries are NOT INTENDED to cause laptop computer fires.


T. Holford

Private Reply to Thomas Holford

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