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[Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.Views: 833
Sep 03, 2006 6:06 am[Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Every day the market gets a new Water Purification system for household use.

All companies are out to take their share of the market.

Some statistics before we start

Water -Is an Essential But Finite Resource.

Water is to the 21st century what oil was to 20th

1.2 billion worldwide lack safe drinking water – will double by 2025

7 million die every year from water related diseases

450 million in 29 countries face acute water shortage - 2.5 billion by 2050

Global water demand doubles every 20 years.

Having written all this, will ask all FuFa members to work towards conserving water.

There are whole lot of myths and msiconceptions about water purification, thanks also to the companies who sell by making false claims.

Please ask your water treatment related questions and let us take this thread forward

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 03, 2006 6:15 amre: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

SOEB FATEHI
yeh toh doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani karega ab . . . . . . .



lekin dilon ko purify karneka bhi jaasti jaroori . . . .

Private Reply to SOEB FATEHI

Sep 03, 2006 6:20 amre: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Nishaant Joshi
Fufaji,

Can you elaborate more about water safety at home and which are the better purifiers available in the market today ?

Private Reply to Nishaant Joshi

Sep 03, 2006 6:27 amre: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Jocelyn Britto
What is your take on the new technology of Ionisers for Home consumption as compared to the existing purifiers available in the market.

Jocelyn.

Private Reply to Jocelyn Britto

Sep 03, 2006 6:34 amre: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

SOEB FATEHI
what is desalination? and what is demineralisation?

on the one hand they sell mineral water at exorbitant prices and on the other hand they do demineralisation to purify water ?

sometimes they say you mist have proper salt with iodene and some times they desalinate the water?

gareeb log confuse ho gaya to mar gaya?

Private Reply to SOEB FATEHI

Sep 03, 2006 6:42 amre: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Nishant

I will take your question first.

Filter technology is not a safe way to purify water at home in its present configuration. And the reason for this is that the systems require a lot of maintenance. And the "Chalta hai" attitude in the Indian household is not suitable

An effective water purifier at Home a few things the companies supplying should incorporate in the system:

* Auto Flushing every 2-3 hours
* Auto Back flushing once in two days
* Cleaning the UV lamps ( the effectiveness of the UV lamps diminishes due to the formation of biofilms and the intensity of the UV light is no more sanitising)
* Blinding of active carbon cartridges -
* Poor quality filter media to be replaced by validated filetrs
* Continuous re-circulation loop and water always in motion
* No stagnant areas in the design.


I have not come across many water systems which meet all the above criteria. If companies start providign all these features, the systems will become un-affordable. So if you are not willing to spend a good amount to buy a high ended water purifier, stay away from it. ( I will be killed by companies making water purifiers for making a statement like this)

Sadly it is a commercial world outside.

So the best solution : BOIL and DRINK. We for example pass it through a System like Aquaguard and then BOIL the water at home.

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 03, 2006 7:14 amre: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Sandip Kundu
One question - if there are impurities in the water, and it is boiled, won't they still remain in the water when drunk, albeit without any harmful effects...so is it more prudent to filter it as well after boiling?

Private Reply to Sandip Kundu

Sep 03, 2006 7:53 amre: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

SOEB FATEHI
boiling ke liye kerosene/LPG price consider kar ke pliss compare karneka 'unaffordable' filters ko . . .

Private Reply to SOEB FATEHI

Sep 03, 2006 7:57 amre: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Jocelyn:
Any particluar brand you have in mind?
And by the way - pH of 6.5-7.5 is the most comfortable pH for bacterial growth. They love to multiply in this pH - so a poorly maniatined water purifier can actually become a media for Bacteria to propagate - and our Indian climatic conditions are actually the best temperature conditions -scary thought

Sandip:
For the same reason - We first filter and then BOIL has been recommended above

Soeb:
You can do the calculation - But only if it is done realistically

The problem is with the companies who supply these systems - They write in bold "Maintenance FREE" as a sales gimmick.

Boiling also has to be for a minimum of 20-30 minutes at 70-80 Deg C to disinfect the water. Simple making the water boil in 5 minutes and putting the heat off does not help for certain heat resistant bacteria

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 03, 2006 8:28 amre: re: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

SOEB FATEHI
yes Lalit - it is a full 30 minute boiling which makes me wonder about the energy costs as compared to the initial investment in a 'unaffordable filter' - and mind you the energy cost is gonna escalate all the time - - - -

i feel it would be more sensible to install one big costly filter for the whole building or one bigger costlier filter for a set of buildings instead of individual home unit - that way the cost will be affordable and maintenance can be done by the coop society - - - - -

another thought i need to know about is that if the boiling is done at high pressure (like pressure cooking) then at higher temperatures would it be possible to have to boil for only five minutes and therefore save gas? if so then the building can install a mini boiler which can be fired more economically - - - - -

Private Reply to SOEB FATEHI

Sep 03, 2006 8:48 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Water has to be seen by co-op societies as part of the total management system if we have to start conserving water -

* Which will include an audit to monitor the water consumptions by individual soccieties
* Re-cycling waste water

A central filtration plant should become part of the newer societies planning.

Because of the absence of these, smaller fly by night operators lure customers to buy cheap and inefficient filtration systems. Result the technology is questioned and not the provider.

As far as using high pressure is concerned - it is a practise used in the pharmaceutical industry to autoclave using steam at high pressure and temperature of 120 Deg C for sanitising, for the pharma products the norms are more stringent. We effectivly do not gain much advantage for drinking water, so it will be just an added cost with no value.

Making comparisons, does anyone know, what is the accpetable limit of CFU/ml (colony forming units or bacteria) set by US-FDA or FDA in India for Drinking water ? These form part of the WHO drinking water guidelines. Make a guess

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 03, 2006 10:19 am: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

RAJAN ADVANI
What about reverse osmosis process of filtration?
Understand that these units- like the one manufactured by Kent (with Hema Malini as Brand Ambassador)?

From my point of view no domestic machine can make water completely safe in our country, this is due to severe Pollution and contamination of all the fresh and saline water sources like Rivers, lakes seas and also groundwater by deadly chemicals and metals- Many of these chemicals like mercury Arsenic and lead cannot be removed large scale water treatment plants.

Mercury imports to India have more than doubled between 1996 and 2002 from 254 tonnes a year to 531 tonnes annually.


Imports of organo-mercury compound (pesticides, biocides etc) have jumped 1,500 times -- from 0.7 tonnes to 1,312 tonnes -- during the same period, according to the latest data released by the Directorate General of Commercial Intelligence and Statistics, Kolkata.

According to the data, India has now replaced the US as the biggest consumer of mercury. It consumes 50 per cent of the global production and processes 69 per cent of it. The data was presented by the Delhi-based Centre for Science and Environment.

We are rapidly becoming the toxic dumping ground of the world's mercury and other deadly poisons which are finding its way to our water resources both fresh and Marine.

When we are talking about safe drinking water it does not mean just killing a few microbes, safe drinking water means getting rid of all the toxic chemicals and metals which will, besides causing irreversible damage, to our nervous system will alter our DNA !!!










Private Reply to RAJAN ADVANI

Sep 03, 2006 10:21 am[Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Basab Ghosh
As we are still beating around the bush, let me say what I understand with my limited knowledge of water and it's purification systems......

1. Most domestic purification systems these days come with a sediment filter and an activated carbon filter. The first one filters out particles over 5 micron (0.005 mm) in size (which eliminates most undissolved particles) and the second one removes chlorine and other halogens along with related odours. Some companies provide a pre-sediment filter of 20 micron size.

3. In conventional systems (e.g. aquaguard), this is followed by an UV filter, in which the UV light deactivates bacterias & viruses (about 99%), but they remain in the water. The downside in these systems is that they do not lower the TDS (Total dissolved solids) of water or any other dissolved contaminants. So brackish water remains brackish. One can use these systems only if the tap water has a TDS less than 500 ppm (parts per million). What the selling companies do not mention is that even then, the water is not safe for drinking if heavy metals or arsenic are dissolved in the water.

4. The RO (reverse osmosis) systems remove all (99.9%) particulates above 0.0001 micron, including dissolved solids, bacteria & viruses, which makes the water almost distilled water quality and consequently also tasteless.

5. Some companies provide post RO treatment to put back some minerals and taste into the water, some do a post RO UV filter to guard against possible failure of the RO membrane. Some don't provide any post RO treatment. Point to remember, the RO process rejects about 75% of the input water and lets in only about 25% water. For some taste in water, one needs a minimum TDS of 50 ppm.

6. Higher the TDS, lower the life of the membrane, even with membrane flushing system, which most lower end seller do not have. Many do not have the automatic flushing system. I am not sure back flushing is employed in RO systems or whether that is possible.

7. Domestic RO systems can generally handle upto 1500 ppm TDS, beyond which most won't guarantee their system. One or two handle up to 4000 ppm, but that is about the limit. Industrial RO systems can be designed to handle even higher TDS levels (and Soeb, RO based desalination plants are now being installed), but at a very high cost.

8. The so called mineral RO systems probably bypasses a small part of the input water directly into post RO filters. In these cases, a post RO UV treatment becomes imperative to kill the germs carried by this untreated water.

Well, with this as input, Lalit can advise us what would be an ideal domestic RO system and compare between brands and their products.

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

Sep 03, 2006 10:33 amre: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Basab Ghosh
Oh! I forgot another question....

Given the scenario about contamination of stagnant water, how safe are the domestic RO systems with storage?

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

Sep 03, 2006 11:31 amre: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Nishaant Joshi
thanks for the info fufaji

Private Reply to Nishaant Joshi

Sep 03, 2006 12:52 pmre: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Thankyou BasabDa

Selecting the right Water Purifier we have to first understand the types of impurities whch are available in water and then move onto understanding what technologies are required in our system to remove them.

The impurities are primarily of three types

Chemical, Physical and biological

Chemical Impurities in water supply depending in the part of the country or world you live in are :

Dissolved gases ( eg. Chlorine)
Dissolved salts ( eg. carbonates, bicarbonates, chlorides, sulfates etc)
Trace pesticides, heavy metals, arsenic, cadmium etc.
( the chemical impurities are making way into regular use water because of the run-off from Industrial wastes, leachates from landfills, herbicides, pesticides


Physical impurities in water supply are:
* Suspended particles - dirt, rust from pipelines, algae etc
* Colloidal impurities causing turbidity

Biological impurities comprise of :
Coliform Bacteria, viruses, E-Coli and other micro-organisms

We will discuss about the technologies which remove the above mentioned impurities one by one in subsequent posts

Till then, keep your responses and doubts flowing

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 03, 2006 5:26 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Basab Ghosh
Lage Raho Lalit! Now that you have set the stage, we are (at least I am)eagerly waiting for you to unravel the mysteries.

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

Sep 03, 2006 5:55 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

SOEB FATEHI
pata chal he jayega paani kitne paani ein hain!

one doubt more - when organisms die they decay into basic chemical molecular substances - when bacteria and other micro-organisms get killed by UV or any other means do they not become contaminant chemicals in the water? what separation can be used for such dissolved organic matter?

Private Reply to SOEB FATEHI

Sep 04, 2006 2:33 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Yes, BasabDa - let me write it in installments.

Soeb to answer you quickly regarding the dead bacteria

When the bacteria dies - the cell mass or the cell debris is in very small quantity and is not harmful if consumed. However the broken cell walls of the bacteria also called the "Pyrogens" are very big issue in the Pharmaceutical industry.

Pyrogens are fever-producing materials that most often originate from gram-negative bacterial cell walls, but can also originate as leachates from some chemicals and materials.And these are measured in EU/ml - Endo-Toxins -

The cell mass, intra-cellular material and the presence of Endo-Toxins in Injectibles is not acceptable and these are falling in the 10,000 Dalton molecular weight range (this is the terminolgy used for size of the Molecules in Daltons - 10,000 Dalton relates to a approx. 0.01 Microns physical size)
An Ultra-filtration device is used to remove the pyrogens - we can also use the UF membranes to remove these from water, but it is not required as they are not harmful if consumed, but only are harmful if injected ( They cause fever if injected - and that used to be the test used in the industry in the past - In the animal house the rabbits were injected and the temperature rise was reported - which related to the limit of EU/Ml - Now this procedure has been replaced by gel clot and kinetic chromogenic Limulus Amebocyte Lysate (LAL) testing systems.....)

Sorry for digressing to Injectibles- will soon come back on the first treatment for Chemical impurities in the evening

Till then all have a good start of the week. And wish you a very successful week ahead

Lage Raho

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 04, 2006 5:37 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Jocelyn Britto

http://www.pure-pro.com/why_water_ionizer_is_popular.htm
Water Ionizer is a medical device in Japan.
Why? Read on . . .



Private Reply to Jocelyn Britto

Sep 04, 2006 6:16 amre: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Jocelyn Britto
Ionisers

I came across this systems when I was checking for alternative Therapies for my Fathers ailments. Apart from my previous link, another brand is Jupiter www.JupiterIonizers.com

If any of you have gone through these links and read about these Ionisers,it sounds interesting. The biggest hitch is the cost. At the moment one needs to import these from Taiwan or US or Canada. Not aware of anyone manufacturing it here. I checked with the company if they could send in a sample( like a demo kit for test purposes if suitable in India ) to which they were like you buy in bulk first.
So cant comment on the product. So maybe to test or get these guys send a sample, someone like Fufaji can help.

I use Moniba and then usually boil water. Specifically for drinking store in Copper vessel surrounded by Magnets. Some product I purchased from these Magneto therapy Guys during an exhibition.

So have got this far and my style of Domestic Water treatment & consumption.

Regards,

Jocelyn

Private Reply to Jocelyn Britto

Sep 04, 2006 6:29 am[Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Basab Ghosh
"An Ultra-filtration device is used to remove the pyrogens - we can also use the UF membranes to remove these from water, but it is not required as they are not harmful if consumed, but only are harmful if injected ..."

Is it that pyrogens are harmful if it gets directly into blood stream? In that case it will be harmful also for people with intestinal injuries like ulcers, won't it? What do you say Lalit? Also, what is the pore size of these ultra filters? Less than 0.01 micron?

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

Sep 04, 2006 6:46 amre: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Yes, Pyrogens are harmful if they enter the blood stream - typically during glucose or saline adminsitration or injection.

Human beings are sunjected to microbes and toxic susbstances on a daily basis. Our body's natural defenses restrict the bacteria and the toxins, etc. to areas where they can be tolerated, the skin and in the stomach and alimentary tract.

Whereas in the injection or glucose or saline administration a pyrogen bypasses the normal body defenses. I have not come across any case of Pyrogen affecting if consumed, maybe some doctors can highlight this issue and if they have come across any such case.

Regarding the micron size of the Ultrafiltration membrane a UF membrane rated at 10000 MWCO ( Molecular weight cut-off) can remove Pyrogens - this cut off generally relates to a micron size of 0.01 Microns

BasabDa, I hope this was helpful

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 04, 2006 7:06 amre: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

SOEB FATEHI
does pyrogen have anything to do with fire?

Private Reply to SOEB FATEHI

Sep 04, 2006 7:20 amre: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
The term Pyrogen is used because it is a substance that can cause a rise in body temperature - Pyrogens cause FEVER
Maybe Pyro-Heat and Gen - generate - Interesting question Soeb

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 04, 2006 8:18 am[Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Basab Ghosh
We are subtly digressing from the original focus. Lalit, please continue further on the water purification techniques and requirements.

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

Sep 05, 2006 4:49 pmre: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Basab Ghosh
Lalit, gathering your thoughts?

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

Sep 05, 2006 7:37 pmre: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Been busy actually.....

I am sorry for not writig here
Give me 10 minutes

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 06, 2006 1:06 amre: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Sandip Kundu
....

Private Reply to Sandip Kundu

Sep 06, 2006 8:59 amre: re: re: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Chemical impurities in water:
Dissolved gases ( eg. Chlorine)
Dissolved salts ( eg. carbonates, bicarbonates, chlorides, sulfates etc)
Trace pesticides, heavy metals, arsenic, cadmium etc.
( the chemical impurities are making way into regular use water because of the run-off from Industrial wastes, leachates from landfills, herbicides, pesticides

What are technologies which are used for this?


Dissolved gases ( eg. Chlorine) = This mainly removed by putting an Activated carbon bed in line. As the terms suggests that it is "Activated" so it is not something which will last lifelong. Dissolved Organic compounds are also adsorbed by the active carbon sites.

Dissolved salts :
You must have read about the term “Hard water” and “Soft water”
Hard water is water with high level of ionic content of Calcium and magnesium in the form of Carbonates and sulfates. Hard water is difficult to foam with soap – that is a easiest test to check if the water is hard or soft.
Hard water is safe enough to drink if the mineral content is not too high.
Hardness is reduced by using a SOFTENER - Softener is a device which replaces the Calcium and Magnesium ions by Sodium ions making the water soft. Zeolite resin bed is used and water is passed through this.


When we do a test of water – we calculate what is known as TDS = Total dissolved solids.

The heavy metallic ions are removed by acid and basic ions in an ION EXCHANGE BED also known as a de-mineraliser. Many household water systems have a cartridge with mixed resin filled in them. These resins have a fixed life and after that these have to be re-charged or in case of household systems these cartridges have to be replaced by new ones. The life of the cartridge can be calculated if we have chemical report of water in a particular locality. The life will vary from location to location, so you should not believe in companies making false claims, saying that their De-mideraliser will have so and so life in any part of India.

Second method to remove the TDS is Reverse Osmosis. This technique selectively removes the Ions from water – however for a good rejection the water recovery is very low. So we have to waste almost 50-60% water which is normally a water with concentrated salts which is rejected by the membrane.

For trace impurities like Arsenic and other pesticides, specific resins are used to remove them by absorption or iron oxidation and filtering the flocs ( normally in water supplies to cities, these problems are taken care at the municipal water treatment plants)

So to conclude the chemical impurities in water can be removed using softeners, demineralisers, activated carbon, reverse osmosis to remove the dissolved impurities.
The selection of the technology is specific to the quality of the feed water.

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 07, 2006 10:33 am[Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Basab Ghosh
How about removal of bacteria & viruses?

How and to what extent commercial domestic water purifiers follow the steps you described?

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

Sep 07, 2006 11:17 amre: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

FuFaji Lalit Vashishta
Basabda Biological impurities in a while.
We will go to the Physical impurities next

The commercial systems in the market make many compromises - we will discuss that in the conclusive post

Private Reply to FuFaji Lalit Vashishta

Sep 09, 2006 9:05 amre: re: [Fufaji se poochcho] - All about water purifiers.#

Basab Ghosh
aage bolo!

Private Reply to Basab Ghosh

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