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Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....Views: 2314
Nov 16, 2006 4:47 pmMarketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Brenda Wagner
These are just my thoughts on marketing online. The more ads I see from my safelists and traffic exchanges, the more I scratch my head. It sometimes seems like everyone is just chasing each others tails. For 4 years I was a tail chaser too. Until now...

I changed the way I market when I realized who's ads I would open and the question I had everytime. That question was always, "what's in it for me?" The other questions I had was, who IS this person, have they been around long, and has their company been around long. If the answers contained no's or I don't know, I would move on to the next ad (mind you, only ads that had a subject line that stood out to me, that maybe answered my question-"what's in it for me").

I believe in getting to know people if you are marketing onine. I believe in giving people something of huge value that they could use for any of their businesses (online or brick and mortar) in exchange for helping me in my business. Marketing IS A PEOPLE BUSINESS and those who refuse to acknowlege this will never make it.

To see an example of this, you can go to this page and see what I did:

If you browse my personal site, you will also see little tidbits unrelated to "business", some personal stuff so people can get to know me. I happen to be a musician and have a lot of musician friends-I put some music pages there. I write little marketing musings in my own words on the page called Marketing Do's and Don't, it's not even really a sales page, just some advice.

To sum this up, always remember these things:
Get to know people, rub elbows with the successful ones too!
Give them something of real value in return for helping you!
Always answer peoples questions they may have!
Don't be afraid to tell a little bit about yourself unrelated to business, you may find business friends who have a LOT in common with you.

Let me know what you think!

Warmest Wishes,
Brenda Wagner
Founder, Operation ACT

Private Reply to Brenda Wagner

Nov 19, 2006 2:39 amre: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Kurt Schweitzer
It depends.

What are you selling? If you are selling YOU, you need to provide the prospect with a lot of information about yourself. On the other hand, if what you're selling is something that isn't closely associated with you as a person, then all that personal information is just fluff that the prospect will probably ignore.

How are you different from your competition, and how is that difference important to the prospect? Is the fact that you are an artist (or accountant, zookeeper, or whatever) important to the prospect? Will it persuade them that you are someone who deserves their business? Then include all that personal fluff.

What image do you want your business to project? People always make fun of "professional" websites and how they all seem to look alike, but there's a reason for that - they tell prospects that this is a "professional" business, even if it's only a one-person shop. The amount and kind of personal information included in your website should be consistant with the image you're trying to project.

When you design your website you have to guess what visitors will be looking for. You can spend lots of time (and money) putting up information that your prospects completely ignore, while missing those bits of information that would close the sale.

There are "stock" pieces of information you should always include:
* What you are selling.
* How it will benefit the customer.
* Why they should buy it from you, rather than the competition.
* How they can contact you for more information (or to send you money!)
* Answers to potential objections that will convince the prospect to buy.

Anything else should be integrated with your marketing plan, or else it's just useless padding.

Remember: This is your business, and the primary objective of business is to make money. Your website is one of your business tools. Use it wisely!

Kurt Schweitzer

Private Reply to Kurt Schweitzer

Nov 23, 2006 5:16 pmre: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901

Brenda & Kurt,

You are both so right when it comes to these online ads. The public NEEDS a reason to care. Just look at all the online ads that receive absolutely zero feedback. Most of them lack cleverness, too. Far too many are centered in some way on greed. Few bother to appeal to a person's need.

Think about the commercials that actually attract you. I absolutely love those Apple commercials where the PC guy and Apple guy are simply having a verbal exchange. It actually makes me want to be an Mac user...and I have never even owned an Apple computer. Yet, the commercial connects with me.

When was the last time you went to a Ryze network and read an ad that made you laugh? When was the last time you read an ad that gave you something that in some fashion enhanced your life...if only bringing a smile to your face?

Remember Mr Whiffle? He told the world "Please don't squeeze the Charmin." What did people suddenly want to do? They wanted to go to the grocery store and squeeze the Charmin bathroom tissue. Now, there are probably a lot of folks that never actually did that. However, I dare say the thought has been in every person's mind at one time or another.

Even though the commercial is no longer on the tube (the actor who played Mr. Whiffle has been dead for years), earlier this year I conducted a one-person experiment. I went to my local grocery store and squeezed the Charmin. Now, being a sophisticated individual, I needed to do this at a time when no one was in the paper aisle and could see me acting like a fool. After all, I needed to make a scientific comparison. Would there be a difference in the squeezable softness of Charmin vs. Scott bathroom tissue? I chose to squeeze the Scott tissue first and the Charmin tissue second. Well, just as I thought, there was no difference. After all, in both cases I was squeezing a plastic air bubble. But, in choosing to squeeze Charmin AFTER the Scott tissue, for a brief moment the Charmin bathroom tissue remained in my grasp. A decision needed to be made. What do I do with the tissue? Do I put it back on the shelf or simply toss it into the grocery basket? The difference in price between the two tissues in not that much. Well, it would be more trouble to put the tissue back on the shelf than it would be to simply put it into my grocery basket. Suddenly, it dawned on me that is the whole point to that silly little commercial - once I got my hands on the tissue I wouldn't put it BACK on the shelf!

What folks here who advertise on Ryze need to do is come up with truly clever ads. Then, you will likely stop seeing a zero following so many of those ad posts here on Ryze.

Lamar Morgan
Power Networking - http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=18

Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901

Nov 23, 2006 8:19 pmre: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Andrew Barnes

Woh! Woh! Woh!

Please. People. Can we be clear about what we are discussing.,/p>

Nor is it exclusively Advertising.

To start from the top -

Brenda -
"from my safelists and traffic exchanges"
There is a reason some email service providers ban safelists. Because they are a waste of bandwidth.
Do you actually read all the messages you get via these safelists?
Neither do they. So why waste your time sending your messages through them?

Traffic Exchanges are a little different, and yes, I do use a couple.
However. I sell services and products relevant to the newbie internet marketer. Trying to sell anything else throught this means, means a waste of your time and/or money.


Yes. Absolutely.
"marketing is about people, not products". (Williams K.C. 1981 Behavioural Aspects of Marketing).

But then Kurt, you go on to describe considerations in the SELLING process, not the marketing process. The two are very distinct.

You go on to ask "If you are selling YOU".
She may not be 'selling' her good self, but she is absolutely marketing her good self.
That is what marketing is.

When brand A promote themselves as a superior choice compared to brand B, they are not promoting their product (whether toilet tissue, Lamar, or baked beans) but they are promoting, advertising, selling - MARKETING their brand. Not the product.
When your brand is yourself, like in Brenda's case, then you are selling yourself. It is this, and this alone, that will distinguish you in your prospects eyes.
Unless you have a worldwide patent on an original invention, or intellectual property, you can not be unique on product alone.

How you present the product/service. How you offer customer support. Pricing. These are the province of marketing.

How you go out and actually get someone to sign on the line. That is selling.

To use Lamnars example of 'squeeze the charmin' (we still have animated commercials here in the UK on the same theme from them). This is marketing.
The company that makes 'charmin' (Andrex, I believe, may be wrong) don't sell them. Their marketing agency 'MARKETS' them. The supermarkets sell them.

Andrew E. Barnes.
Internet Marketing Consultant
Get straight to the point...
Skype Me™!
join SKYPE for free.
Yahoo IM: andrewebarnes
+44 (0)1452 536087.

Private Reply to Andrew Barnes

Nov 23, 2006 11:22 pmre: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Michael R Clayton
Hi Brenda,

Brenda I do not belive in safe lists, autoresponders, or marketing tools.

I find I get loads of sales just from making friends in communities and discussing business and what works and what does not work. This way I also learn a lot about online business and marketing.

I usually have a profile in the community so my friends can see I am a real person and to allow them to learn about me. I also have a blog and networking page so people can see my sites.

Regards Michael Clayton (rexiedexie)

Meet Me At My Many Community Profiles Page
http://networking.love-au.com/ Article http://www.writingup.com/blog/rexiedexie

Private Reply to Michael R Clayton

Nov 24, 2006 12:51 pmre: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Brenda Wagner
Wow, and this is why I love you guys! I love hearing different perspectives and how things work for you. All of you give me new ways of looking at things. I may not always be right given my experience, so it helps me to listen to you. I really trust what you all say and I am so thankful to Ryze, and to my new friends right here in this forum!! Thanks everyone for writing! I have always told new team members that forums are a great way to learn about marketing, I am going to point them to Ryze because I think all of the different products, and businesses that you promote, might also help them to decide which way to go a lot faster than I could tell them!

Warmest Wishes,
Brenda Sue

Private Reply to Brenda Wagner

Nov 24, 2006 5:09 pmre: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901


You raise some excellent points here. Perhaps the reason so many posts get zero feedback on what is actually referred to as "advertising networks" here on Ryze is because the folks are trying to "sell" their products, when instead what they should be doing is marketing their brand. What is the brand? That brand is the person who is writing the post.

The question becomes why should anyone care that this person is attempting to draw attention to himself? Could it be that he truly cares more about something that impacts your life? And, if what he says resonates with you in a positive way, are you are likely to respond?

Do you remember the Wendy's commercial where the little old lady looked at the hamburger on the plate and simply said, "Where's the beef?" That little innocent comment has since been used over-and-over again in the political spectrum. Words can be extremely powerful if you cleverly use them. It really is a matter or both design and placement. Just putting your message out there is NOT enough. You have to make sure it is the right message and targeted at the right audience.

The investment banking firm of Bear Stearns does not market itself to the general public. Therefore, you will not see any ads promoting its services in the newspaper, on radio or TV. Why? Because the firm only wants the wealthiest of the wealthy calling them. So, the firm targets the customers it wants through a sophisticated direct-mail campaign with the help of Dow Jones & Company.

Although small business entrepreneurs cannot do what Bear Stearns does the way Bear Stearns does it, they can in a much smaller way follow their example. They can pursue the best customers for their business by building their own proprietary database and using a power networking approach. Tools like the CRM software product !ntellect can actually help you do that. I also recommend combining the talkcasting services of Talkshoe and the online lens service of Squidoo.

For anyone who is interested, books like Professional Networking For Dummies, The Virtual Handshake and Never Eat Alone, can also help you. Links to all those books and more are available at Power Networking.

Lamar Morgan
Power Networking - http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=18

Private Reply to Lamar Morgan 954-603-7901

Nov 25, 2006 2:16 amre: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Kurt Schweitzer

The number one marketing company is, arguably, Procter & Gamble.

The reason why they are so successful is that it's never about P&G, it's always about the customer. They have over 100 different brands (including the aforementioned Charmin), each tailored to a specific market.

What do you know about P&G? Do you know how many brands and products they offer? Do you know how many employees they have? Do you know anything about their corporate values? Do you even know what their logo looks like? (Their logo is a moon-and-stars design that has been considered satanic by some.)

Sure, you can find out a lot of these things by going to their website (if you can find it!) (it's at http://www.pg.com) but most consumers won't bother looking. Why? Because their marketing focuses on THE CUSTOMER.

So when you're developing your website, follow P&G's lead. Focus on the customer. You don't want your website saying "I'm this" or "I can do that" unless it's part of a sentence saying "Here's how I can help YOU." Focus on the customer's needs and wants. Put the customer first.

Kurt Schweitzer

Private Reply to Kurt Schweitzer

Jan 02, 2007 4:41 pmre: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

k kemper
MY sister, an avowed Socialist, believes in biz as you do; letting others know about you outside of biz before you strive to gain their biz.

I suggest for those liking this/her approach, read books [on cold calling] first, by W. Clement Stone, Frank Bettger, and Joe Girard--to compare. YOU might get mighty old waiting to create a good network while your competitor sells to your clients!

They all discuss COLD calling when solving the customer's problems is foremost. NOT getting to know the customer
better--outside of solving his problems.

TIME is never recovered. When you are not selling, you are losing. Most people consider selling hustling. IT is not.
Selling is helping the other person buy by helping them
solving a problem. All other approaches are hustling.
I have done both. I did get a rush by hustling but I
was not happy the next day. When I solve problems I feel
good indefinitely.

[and I used to love Sprint--for 5 yrs, then they burned
me and never again--so much for my network with them.

The adage, "What have you done for me recently comes home

IF you want to sell to me, I don't care who you are,
or where you are from; if you seek to solve MY problems
[not covertly yours], I will listen!

Private Reply to k kemper

Jan 02, 2007 5:30 pmre: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Steven Diebold
I would agree its not about me its about YOUR problems and how I can solve them for you. The most difficult thing in marketing is knowing your ROT. Return on TIME.

Do you build relationships, sell directly, post in forums, talk on the phone, write articles, network, create ezines, direct mail, etc... I think if one just gets consistent and masters a few of these things it will increase their lead generation if the message and target are approached correctly.

There are many vehicles but the lead generation message must be solid or it goes in the trash. If you're terrible on the phone with cold calling you will fail at that too. Marketing activities are important but we must have a BRAND STRATEGY to orchestrate all those activities around. When people talk about brands I think that TERM alone brings confusion because there is no STANDARD definition for it in the human vocabulary.

If I were to say what is someone's brand I bet most couldn't answer it very clearly in a few words or a couple sentences. That's because people are complex beings and to communicate what you're about and why I should care takes great thought and discipline to do.

The terminology is the problem. If someone says tell me about your friend, you could explain some key characteristics about your friend but it would be mainly personality or what they do or things that stick out for you about them. Is that their brand? I'm not so sure. It depends on the context of my relationship with you and why you're telling me about your friend. What is the basis of the relationship I have with you? Are you a trusted business collegue that is telling me this info because you used this friend to do some work for you and it was outstanding? Or is this just a casual conversation about this friend of yours? The context and basis of relationship determines the information I will need to hear.

Your brand only matters to me if it solves my problem. If I have a friendship problem and need more friends then I would like to hear about this charming person I should get to know. . In laymens terms... Unless I'm thinking of becoming friends with your friend or inviting him over I will want to know certain criteria based on the basis of the relationship I'm evaluating them on in relationship to my life or endeavors.

As a consumer or business person I have certain problems I need addressed and I am always scanning the environment for the means to solve those problems either efficiently, effectively, or economically cost effective or all 3.
Your brand becomes more relevant to me if I think you solve my problems. If I have relational needs then I want to know about their personality or character or other attributes that make a great friend, if its for business context and I need a strong brand to solve my business growth issues then I will want to know how they solve my problem, the proof they can, who else they solved it for, their results, then I want to know the personality and what they are like to work with, their character, integrity and so on.

So at the end of the day the basis of the relationship or context determines the brand that gets communicated. Either way the brand only matters to me if it solves my problems or needs.

So what is your brand? can you sum of your business brand, your friendship brand, your marriage brand,, your dating brand, your parent brand into a sentence that another could quickly grasp and say "I get it, you're like BLANK, I would trust you with watching my kids..."

All these are brand relationships or roles that convey different characteristics that are important depending on the basis of the relationship.

Happy brand building...

Branding Alchemist


Private Reply to Steven Diebold

Jan 02, 2007 6:34 pmre: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Katie Bourland
Interesting thread.

I think that most people don't realize is that the internet is the ultimate direct response medium. Your purpose and the only purpose in your initial advertising should be to make a contact by gathering the name, e-mail address and phone number. This is especially true if you are using hit exchanges or safelists to generate your leads. The purpose of these advertising vehicles is to get someone to open the door so that you can build a relationship with them...i.e generate a lead.

Once you have the lead you use your systems to provide follow through via your autoresponders, personal communications and phone calls where appropriate. Most importantly you need a system that works cohesively to build that relationship and trust over time. It's the integrity of the follow up system that makes the sale.

On a personal level, I've learned not to belive what is on websites. I make my decisions based on how quickly someone responds to me, if the answers they provide make sense and if it good economic deision in both time and money expenditures.

I could go on with this topic forever, good thread.

Katie Bourland

Private Reply to Katie Bourland

Jan 02, 2007 9:47 pmre: re: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Paul Strauss
Katie is exactly right. Don't try to "but" her post- I'm telling you. I've tested everything else, and it's ineffective. The purpose of all web marketing is to ultimately build a highly motivated list of buyers of your product or service, or a product or service with which you are affiliated.

I've told my former, and reluctant web designer this over and over again. He gave me all the myriad reasons why I should have a fancy flash intro etc and designed a really slick looking site which I declined to go with. I told him, "How about this: I'll put you on pay for performance and then you can decide if you'd like to feel really good about your artwork, or eat." and I ultimately fired him.

A 70,000 + subscriber list later I'm not entirely dissatisfied with my decision.

I'm always trying to explain this to my cohorts in every business (yes your business, too) that if you build a big enough list, it really doesn't matter what you're selling. It's a numbers game. It could be liver-flavored toothpaste to a target market of Parents of toddlers- and if you have compelling marketing you'll get orders. If you have enough people on the list- a big enough herd of loyal, hyper-responsive buyers- you'll sell lots of liver flavored toothpaste for their little crumb crunchers. I guarantee it.

Private Reply to Paul Strauss

Jan 02, 2007 10:10 pmre: re: re: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Angelo Cerase
I think it was Aristotle that said something like "Give me a lever long enough and solid place to stand, and I can move the world".

The same way a single man can actually move a planet using a long enough lever, a single salesperson can make a fortune selling liver flavoured toothpaste with a large enough list.


Private Reply to Angelo Cerase

Jan 03, 2007 12:41 amre: re: re: re: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Steven Diebold
I totally agree 110% Getting a database going is the 1st line of business. Once you get that list then its time to start identifying their problems and how you can help them achieve their goals with what you offer. How does one build that into a brand? Look at Harley Davidson.

steven diebold
Branding Alchemist

Private Reply to Steven Diebold

Jan 11, 2007 7:06 amre: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Marilyn Jenett

I have to respond here. A couple of months late but I must set the record straight. Once and for all...

Lamar, I'm sorry to say you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Inarguably wrong!

There is no question about this. It is fact. It is absolute law. It is written in stone (so to speak). You didn't have "first hand" knowledge. You just "fluffed" over the facts. :-)

So don't even attempt to resist what I say. There are some things that we just know. We know that we know. And about this I KNOW.

So listen up!!

Charmin is definitely softer than Scott and in fact, softer than every other brand. One qualification: Charmin Ultra (the blue one).

So don't resist.

As Mamie Yokum from "Lil Abner" used to say...

"I has spoken!"

And by the way...the name was Whipple. George Whipple. (0007 music in the background).


Glad I got that off my chest.

Charmin Ultra. No contest. Whipple was right.

Private Reply to Marilyn Jenett

Jan 11, 2007 8:02 pmre: re: re: re: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Paul Strauss
[I think it was Aristotle that said something like "Give me a lever long enough and solid place to stand, and I can move the world".]


Private Reply to Paul Strauss

Jan 11, 2007 8:09 pmre: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Paul Strauss
Andy Barnes,

I agree with you that marketing (in fact business) is all about people. It's about all the things you mentioned- building the brand, positioning, relationships and so on.

However, in the end the business purpose of the time, money, effort is to sell your product or service-- or as Peter Drucker put it, "The purpose of marketing is to make sales superfluous".

FWIW, I think we're both saying the same things; but I wanted to clarify that I don't disagree with your comments, and I wanted to put my own remarks in context.

Private Reply to Paul Strauss

Jan 15, 2007 9:34 pmre: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

cris delgado
Hello everyone!

As I've just started here I find this site very enlightening on the topic of marketing.

I've been reading alot about WEB 2.0 in the past 2 weeks because I had decided that the traditional WEB approaches just don't seem to work--at least for me. Even squeeze pages that I created seemed to be clicked on for entertainment value but little follow thru unless I added something free and useful behind them.

From what I've seen and experienced in the past year-18 months on the internet (i.e., hyip's, autosuf fiasco's, scam sites up 1 day and gone with your egold in 15 minutes....)I perceive that people don't easily trust anymore. And a lot of our new users coming online aren't really into what the gurus want to sell us.

It seems that many people want to be entertained and to have opportunities to explore and interact vs buy anything right off the bat.

Well, so much for my newbie 2 cents worth....
I really love this forum and will be reading regularly for more great insights!

Best Regards,
Cris Delgado


Private Reply to cris delgado

Jan 15, 2007 10:36 pmre: re: re: re: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Paul Strauss
"squeeze pages...seemed to be clicked on for entertainment value but little follow thru unless I added something free and useful behind them..."

The technical industry term for this is "a clue". ;)

Private Reply to Paul Strauss

Mar 22, 2007 3:36 pmre: Marketing To Marketers...You Won't Make it Unless.....#

Tamara Morahan
Hi everyone, been a while since I've posted, but I've been busy.

I don't think it's just the list you build, or the words you write that attract, retain, and ideally build relationships, it's also how you present yourself.

We had interesting results this week when we launched a campaign entitled missing... we landed an appointment with one of Canada's largest advertising firms.

We started applying for jobs (in the IT and Marketing sections) on all the major job sites using this link. http://www.b-e-communications.com/TamaraMorahanResume.html. We also began spamming the marketing industry using emails addresses found on the CMA website.

The idea behind this is two fold:

1. Demonstrate the capabilities/uses of the video/website concept. In this case an on-line job resume.

2. Promote our combined efforts and the “Personal Marketing” concept to the business market at large.

Job postings on these sites are done either by a placement agency or by the company itself. In both cases it presents us an opportunity to sell our B-line products to the people who could benefit the most from them. For example: Head Hunting shops would benefit if they employed the B-Line system to house video resumes of their top candidates to potential clients. It establishes a meet and greet before the interview process. This cuts costs, increases productivity, and closes the gap between interest, and sale… just like we said in our videos.

This being the case we have re-vamped the b-line site (http://www.b-e-communications.com/B-line/index.html) to illustrate both the NTS System and the implementation of Blogs/vlogs/infoblog as marketing tools. We have scaled all the products into 3 simply sized packages. (Small/Medium/Large).

Secondly we have hammered out the advertising models for PHYTE (http://www.b-e-communications.com/advertisingmodel.html) and hope to demonstrate the unique opportunities that it presents for advertisers of all sizes, again presenting the opportunities in three simple sizes (Small/Medium/Large). Our model, which is the most unique and unobtrusive ad model I have yet seen on the internet, also employs the same principal (Personal Marketing) as a basis.

All of this while applying for jobs in a unique and eye catching way...


Well, if you’re looking for a position in a company, be it a job or as a supplier, you first present your credentials (in this case the resume), secondly you present your capabilities (in this case the b-line products/advertising opportunities), and thirdly you present what benefits you/your products would bring to the company. This tool, as well as the campaign itself, does all of the above in one swift stroke. Not only does it demonstrate the power of our concept, but it also presents our services, and the tools to do this for their companies.

Private Reply to Tamara Morahan

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