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Mar 13, 2007 4:41 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

In reply to Sumanth's description of Natural and human made laws.

Sumanth, while I would agree that Natural laws as defined by you will never change, the interpretation of those, IMO, will change with Time. Since many of us get to know of the Natural laws only by the interpretation we hear and agree upon there will always be a change in the way we view them. This is my side of the argument.

Also, IMHO, many of the social laws are based upon the interpretation of Natural laws. What I mean by social laws are those that govern a society, a clan etc. For example, for a long time, and even today in some families, the older generation finds it difficult to accept the younger generation going to foreign land. The reason could be many. One cause I can think of is, they might think that ones mind gets "corrupted" with ideas that are different/contradictory to what a society follows.

On a side note, I need to be able to put my theory in a manner many of you in this discussion do. I am learning to convince. :)

Gyro,
the idea that Ravana did not observe/follow many of the things that he learned and Rama did is good for a story to show a bad and good guy. But had ravana did not , how come the land(lanka) had so many happy people?

Mar 14, 2007 10:54 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

If Ravana is to be projected as bad intentionaly how was it shown that the land which he ruled had so many happy people? Besides, for ruling a state or being a king one need to know the Raja needhi and not complete vedas. Ravana learned 4 vedas and 6 sastras completely (hence symbolically represented with 10 heads - this kind of symbolic gives the impression that it is a stroy. If we are able to make out this kind of difference then it would be easy for us to belive that they are not stories). As Ravana did not put the learning of Vedas into practical life he experienced a kind of indigestion of knowledge. Otherwise he would not have even thought of capturing other's wife. ie. the knowlege possessed by him was only in the head and it was not percolated down to apply in his life. Hence his head (10 heads) wat cut off from the body to end his life.

Mar 14, 2007 5:13 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Yeah. Anything can be rationalised, I guess

Bharat

Mar 15, 2007 9:17 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Gyro, But what are we talking about? You have a social norm and you say this should apply to someone in timbaktu. How is that possible?

For all what we know Rama's father was not a single pathni man. He had 3 wives plus a horde of concubines. So how is Ravana more evil than Dasaratha? Did dasaratha bring another man's wife we do not know. But he did have a harem.

Assuming Ravana had done this to other kings, with his power, how long would it have taken him to capture Janaka and abduct all his daughters? He could have done this in Ayodhya too? Why did he not? He could have done that before soorpanakA's incident, he did not.

Mar 16, 2007 7:47 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

GR - Dasaradha did not kidnap anybody's wife. His marriages was done with mutual interest.

Ravana felt insulted in the Suyamvara as he could not lift the shiva danush due to his ahambavam. When he failed he was pshycologically down and his mind was wandering for the reason for his failiure. Then he abducted Sita Devi from forest to nullify that insult.

Private Reply to Lord Baron

Mar 16, 2007 9:52 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lord Baron

Very good analysis.... gyro i think i agree with you

M

Mar 16, 2007 4:01 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

clearly there are several messages.

I with my little teeny weeny analysis can think of two,

1) Coronation of a son who was not born to a king
2) How one should be "veetula Raman veLaiyla Krishnan"
not in the form it is meant but, like such:
Like Rama one should be showing his ability to accept others orders even though he had more knowledge.
Like Krishna, when (esp) at war, exhibit, the leadership.

Mar 16, 2007 4:10 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

We do not know about Dasaratha's marriage. He was an emporer. Where would a mutual interest come for a harem of concubines?

On Ravana being humiliated. Had he wanted Sita, he could have won her by engaging in a war. Had he really wanted, he would have brought his entourage of Megadoot and others. If abduction has been in his mind, it would have taken in no time. In hindsight,something does not add up about the character of Ravana as what we know of him from Ramayana.

Mar 17, 2007 6:19 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Poison to one is medicine to others :-)

There is no connection between male domination and man marrying more than one wife. There would be male domination even all over the world marry one-to-one. Even if the man has not married also there would have been male domination. It is natural men dominating the world and woman dominating men :-)

It was very well accepted custom then that the emperors marrying more than one wife. Otherwise king Janaka would not have sent marriage invitation to Ravana to participate in suyamvaram when Ravana was already married. Dasaratha did not force anybody to marry him. If someone is willing to marry as second wife it is purely her personal choice. As King Dasaratha was issueless for long time he had to marry three wives one after another. Therefore there was no objection from previous wife. Then also he was issueless. While counseling he was made remember about the curse given by the parents of Sharavana Kumamara when Dasaradha killed him accidentally during young age. Sharavana was the only son to his parent. So they told Dasaratha that he would also suffer issueless like them. (That is the reason he suffered and died on account of Puthra Dosham soon after Rama left to forest). Then he conducted Yagam and got four childs.

Mar 17, 2007 7:12 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Ramayanana is emotional based; Mahabhratha mainly deals with intelligence of human beings combined with emotional. That is the reason there is too much of debates, strategies, talents of various characters and their significance can be seen in Mahabharatha. It is due to change of Yuga. The objective of Rama avtar is to live like an ordinary human being (with all Ksathriya qualities). But in Mahabharatha Krishna openly claims that he is the Supreme and many important characters like Bhismar, Vidhurar, Dharmar etc acknowledge that fact. Hence God as Rama was listner in Ramayana and decision maker in Mahabharatha.

Ravana was a highly egoistic person as he thought that he is more knowledgeable and powerful than anybody. (Multiply his ego by 10 as he is symbolically represented with ten heads). His ego was very much hurt when he could not succeed during suyamvaram. If you analyze the psychology of egoist persons they are always against someone more than love with someone. His target was breaking of Shivadanush (more than marrying Sita devi) to showcase his supremacy to all kings assembled over there and he thought that he is one who could do this. The failure was made him terrible upset and lateron he took that as challenge. So the next choice was him to abduct Sita, a very dishonest approach, to come out from that psychological trauma . (Infact Mandodhari was as beauty as Sita devi as describle in Ramayana).

Mar 17, 2007 9:17 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

First of all it was a wrong comparison made by you for Dasaradhar marrying three wives to poison and milk. That is why I explained the reason why he got married to three women. Here the meaning of medicine mentioned by me is solution to have issue. If you think this is male domination, then is it female domination when Drowpathy married to five pandavas? There is proper reason behind every incidents in our Ithihas and I am trying to explain that to the best of my knowledge.

�Poison to one is medicine to others�....YES, if you know ayervedic you would understand what I mean. There are three types of human physique described as Vadham, Pitham & Kabam. The same food good for one is alergetic to others. It is applicable even today.

Even in advanced western countries where there is equivality among men & women in terms of education, freedom etc why there were no female scientists like Newton, Einstein, Darwin, Galileo etc.? Why there is no women pilot equivalent to men or why there are no women judges equivalent to men?? Can you imagine a lady POPE?? So, this kind of male domination is not only in our ithihas but all around the world by nature.

(btw, there is one small correction in my post. King Janagan did not send invitation but allowed everyone to participate even if the king is already married).

None of the other religion gives equal importance to female god except Hinduism. That is the reason Lord shiva shares half of his body to Sakthi. Over and above it is said that Sakthi gives power to Shiva.

Mar 17, 2007 10:50 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

First of all I do not agree male domination only in our so called divinity or Ithihas. That is the reason I gave examples of male domination all around the world. Then where is the question of Exceptions? To make your statement more understandable the Drowpathy example was given by me.

Why even today only father name is given as initial of child of both gender and why not mother name when so much of equivality is spoken about?? If this is the present situation where is the question of queen marrying another king in olden days? All the responsibilities were given to male, by nature the anatomy of male was suitable to carryout ourside job or to do wars and therefore some value addition to males. Male domination is the practice of yesterday, today and will be tomorrow. I DON'T DENY THIS FACT. But you are replying as if I am saying men & women were treated equally in our ithihas and therefore you want to counter this and prove about male domination. Strange!

Mar 17, 2007 7:28 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

folks - have deleted all my posts in SD4, have withdrawn myself from the scope of current discussion.

Mar 19, 2007 3:42 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

can we get back to a discussion on SD itself please... gyro sir, bharath or ganesh?

Mar 19, 2007 10:51 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Yes, Sumanth I think the course is set now.

Cheers!

Mar 19, 2007 12:03 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

I never thought any of our discussions go to that level that the person posting had to delete it. I did not see all the messages.

I will agree with sumanth. We will put the discussion of the epics in the backbirner for a while, if you know what I mean.

Sumanth, like gyro had suggested,why not give more insights on some of the vedic writings.

Mar 19, 2007 3:55 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

Ladies and Gentlemen

A very lengthy post, and as always, please graciously excuse my long winding writing as it is almost impossible to express the structure and intent of Vedic thought in a summarised form.

Continuing where I left off earlier on SD3 on summarising the four vedas, I will speak a little about the vedic gods and rishis and their principal ideas, as set in their times. Ganesh Ram has previously written about time and circumstance shaping the view or interpretation of what the natural laws of a particular day and age are. In that sense, he is partially correct and I will also explain how later in this post.

At the outset, let me clarify that this purely represents my personal views and beliefs only and shapes my view on spirituality and consequently, my quest for the meaning and understanding of it all.

Most of the vedic thought is captured admirably in the rig veda ("RV"), what we today acknowledge as the first in the series of the four writings of the vedic corpus, and I will expand my thoughts on this.

As mentioned earlier, in the RV, the names of the rishi or rishikA associated with the mantra in the s�kta or hymn are listed in the heading along with the names of the metres associated with the mantr�s and also the names of the associated cosmic powers. The structure and framework of the entire RV comprising 10 sections or 'mandala' is based on this arrangement.

Six mandalas are given to the hymns of a single rishi or a family of rishis - mandala 2 is rishi gritsamada, mandala 3 is rishi gaathino vishvamitra, mandala 4 is rishi vaamadeva gautama, mandala 5 is the house of rishi atri, mandala 6 to rishi barhaspatyo bharadvaaja and mandala 7 to rishi mitravaruna vashisttha. Each of these six mandalas contains suktas (or hymns) to divine powers - agni first, followed by indra and then other divine powers such as brihaspati, surya, ushas, ribhus, maruts, ashvins, etc.

Mandalas 1, 8 and 10 contain the suktas by various rishis to several gods - leading with agni, indra following and other divine powers mentioned above succeeding.

An entire mandala, i.e. mandala 9 is given in favour of suktas by various rishis to a divine power, 'soma'. This is not the coarse intoxicant (or liquor) that we mistakenly think it to be. It refers to the divine power that makes us capable of accepting and receiving FINALLY the pure delight, the immortal beatitude.

The central idea in the RV is the existence of a Vast and Righteous Truth-consciousness, the prayers to certain divine powers as powers of this Truth to raise mortals out of the falsehoods caused by the mind, leading to the final achievement of and unity with this Truth- consciousness. The human aspirant therefore is progressively made perfect and labours towards this goal. The RV is therefore a variation of a twin theme - (1) the bodily and mental preparation of the mortal, and (2) the fulfilment of immortality in the mortal by the attainment of the Truth-consciousness and Beatitude.

We have heard of the phrase, Sat Chit Ananda which very crudely and summarily means Pure Existence, Pure Consciousness and Pure Bliss, respectively. In the Vedic thought, this is the Truth-consciousness and Beatitude that the rishis and rishikAs refer to, which was revealed to them in a state of supramental consciousness.

Next, coming to the divine powers themselves. We refer to them as loosely as gods. The sanskrit word for divine power is 'deva' which also means cosmic power. Often, we translate 'deva' to mean 'deity' or 'god' although that does not reflect the meaning of the sanskrit word. Each of these divine powers has a specific function and helps develop a particular aspect of the human personality, if we were to look at the true meaning of their sanskrit root.

Therefore, 'agni' represents the power of divine will and aspiration, 'indra' represents divine mind, 'mitra' represents purified judgment, 'varuna' represents the power of truth, the 'ashvins' represent twin powers that perfect the nervous or vital being in man in the sense of action, and so on.

I would also like to add and stress on one aspect here, because I have read several views and counter views on what we have collectively called Hindu gods in earlier posts. I have read references to the puranas in some of the posts on SD or religion. We have several puranas - agni, vishnu, brahma, vayu, etc - which speak of the exploits of one "god" or "goddess" to the detriment of another "god" or "goddess" or about how they have punished certain men or women for periods of time and so on and so forth.

My personal belief and one of the foundations of my spiritual learning is that the divine powers referred to in the vedic literature were anything but petty or little minded or possessed of baser qualities like jealousy or anger or envy. They were first and foremost, friends of everyone and everything, their only purpose being to uplift mortal being to higher and higher realms of existence and finally to the plane (or home or world) of truth, "satya lokam".

Therefore, when I personally address the divine powers in my prayers or in my meditations, I look upon them first and foremost as my friend, one who exists only to help and support me in my sacrificial journey, i.e. what we call yagna, to finally reach "satya lokam", never as someone who delights in making my spiritual upliftment difficult.

I will now touch upon Ganesh Ram's earlier comments and my seemingly different responses. My response in SD3 spoke about "contrastingly, a natural law is never static either. It is quite dynamic because it rests on, among other principles, that of cause and effect."

RV constantly uses and employs three words, Truth (satyam) which is Right (rtam) and Vast (brhat). Every entity in manifestation or creation is a projection of this Truth. The ideal or Law behind this is rtam. For example, the rtam behind a stone characterises its hardness and durability or the rtam behind a flower characterises its color and fragrance and so on. The ideal or law governing manifestation is not static and depends on the place and time. Therefore what is perfect today may not be perfect tomorrow. The ideal rtam behind manifestation is continually changing and raising from one level of perfection to another HIGHER level of perfection. The goal of this natural law is to finally attain all-sided perfection.

Continuing from the above paragraph, I also want to express my views on the meaning and symbolism that we encounter ever so often in the Veda. The ancient seers took up the spiritual life of man as their principal theme. In order to make it concrete for themselves and to hide the secret of spiritual attainment from unfit persons, they veiled it in poetic images drawn from the life and times of their age. This was essentially a life of farmers and tillers varied through nomadic existence due to migrations of clans under their chieftains and knotted together by the worship of gods through the sacrifice.

All that the rishis and rishikAs saw in their outward life, they looked inward and turned into images of inner life. Symbolically, they looked upon the image of man as a sacrifice, journey and a battle. More importantly, they were not kept as separate images. The sacrifice itself was a journey from one plane to another higher plane, at times a battle with hostile forces, and so on.

Again, in that limited sense, Ganesh Ram's earlier comments on SD3 about the time and place defining accepted custom and usage are entirely correct.

I will give one example in support of this. The physical meaning of the word 'go' in sanskrit is 'cow' and indeed for the most part, modern translators have believed that the hymns in the RV were prayers to gods for material aspects like cows and horses, etc. The psychological meaning of 'go' means 'rays of light' or more importantly the 'rays of light that is the awakening of supreme knowledge'.

When the vedic rishi prayed for 'go' he specifically wanted to be bathed in the light of knowledge. When the RV speaks of "indra smashing the hills with his cows", it means 'the enlightened mind destroying the hills of ignorance that surrounded the supreme Truth through the use of divine knowledge'.

To me, this is symbolism of a very highly (possibly highest [?]) refined sense-perception and not what western translators ignorantly assume to be arcane prayers by a barbarian race for material wealth and riches.

This is the difference between the physical and the inner spiritual meaning that one will constantly encounter in their reading and understanding of the veda.

Finally, I would like to close with one thought - in an external sense of the veda, the divine powers are universal powers of nature personified. In an inner sense, they are universal powers on nature in her subjective activities - mind, will, etc. By the right use of physical and mental action in the inner sacrifice, we can each one of us convert ourselves to a divine nature and attain immortality. That is what the vedic corpus progressively teaches us.

More later. Do post your thoughts and comments as well.

Cheers
S

Mar 19, 2007 5:11 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Hmmmm.... thanks for that post Sumanth.

The hmmmm.. is more of "'ahA' I told you so". I guess one feels comfortable with other view if and only if the view gel with their own.

Here are my points. From all what I have heard and read, Agni is treated as the premier god and then followed by others.

Could it be that when the humans started settling down, they were are cave dwellers and discovery and later invention of "Fire" helped them to socially thrive and move up in this world?

Also, IMHO, many of these everday words, for example "soma" and "go" might have been used to make a philosophical concept easy to comprehend. On scond thoughts probably NOT. they just meant what they were. Latter pundits who grew "OUT OF" the society gave it a meaning that their society demanded. For example "SOMA" was not the real soma but a figure of speech. "GO" is not the physical "cow" but rather a figure of speech.

Why would anyone do this type of "correlation" is the word I guess? and to this my view is, the idea od having a society needs several questions to be answered, What was a genuine "GO" might make the shuktas/shlokas trivial as time passed and society advanced. This could be because of repeated interaction.

Mar 19, 2007 6:06 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Sumanth, I sure like your explanations.

But I am not sure if initially, humans started worhipping certain elements simply because those elements caused massive damage to their way of life on a yearly basis, and therefore, they associated deities with them and tried to appease them

Of course, with time, I am sure the old stories were refined a lot to end up as we now see them, with lots of so called "Inner meaning".

I still sometimes think our present day explanations are/were just methods of raionalisation of old ideas.

Of course, this is simply my opinion, and nobody need hold it.

Bharat

Mar 19, 2007 6:51 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BP, if that is the case, it would mean the fear of the unknown is what created these dieties. This probably would help us to find where all the vedas originated.

My theory again, Let us say the humans saw "fire" first in the forest, They saw the damage but could do nothing about it. Then they found the "fire" did two things one it devasted the ecology , but it also provided tastier "food" and warmth in cold days. Therefore they prayed the "fire". But what caused "fire"? They only knew "Thunder" (Indra) could do it. And when all the Thunder came, There was rain(varuna). Whenever there was wind (vAyu) the fire kindled and therefore vAyu was also added to dieties. and so on and on and on.....

So if one can find out where on earth was there immnense thunder say about 4000-5000 years back, we can find out the approx origin of that part of vedas.

How about that?

Mar 20, 2007 5:16 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

Gentlemen

Very valid points, only I do not know and therefore an a little hesitant to conjecture in the manner like you do.

Like you folks have mentioned earlier as well, an ounce of practice is better that tons of theory and debate. Taking a leaf out of your advice, I am very comfortable leading a good life, helping people and doing most of all of the other prescribed wonderful stuff that makes me feel warm and fuzzy and glowing inside without having to stress myself out or cause grief to others. That is what the scriptures prescribe anyways...

In any event, like I always say, follow the system - any system - that you are personally comfortable with, be it theism, atheism or agnosticism. At least that way, you are following your own instincts and beliefs and responsible for your own actions

Cheers
S

Mar 20, 2007 11:40 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

As usual a very professional way of explaining about Vedas by you Sumanth. Your participation in this thread would surely take up our discussion to higher level.

GR - To sum it up what BC wrote is 'SD promotes male domination'. I replied tht not only SD the entire world does so and it is also natural. Though it is obvious in SD about male domination Hinduism is the only religion that honors female too by way of female gods and in some places it goes to the level of declaring male & female equal (Shiva & Sakthi). However we have come back to our main topic and would adhere to that.

Mar 21, 2007 1:21 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

GR : You posted "I never thought any of our discussions go to that level that the person posting had to delete it. I did not see all the messages."

DOnt know what the LEVEL meant.

I withdrew my posts because I did not wish to indulge in the mindless-arguement on the existance/non-existance of GOD in a subject as powerful as SD. to me it defeats my understanding of why I am here in this discussion at the 1st place.

Cheers

Note - Good to note the recent changes in this discussion which I feel is the essense of the subject.

Mar 21, 2007 2:42 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

well if we look at how we started the discussion of SD, one would see that defining what is SD?
SD Part I

And had comments about the existence of the "Latter Gods" which allowed us to form a social hierarchy and societial cohesiveness. I am saying this because, Sumanth, if we do as what you have described in the last paragraph of yours in the previous post, then each of us will be a society of ourself. Since each will follow their own principles.

Mar 21, 2007 2:43 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BC, I thought the discssion went on a totally abusive path that some posts have to be deleted.

Mar 21, 2007 3:43 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

GR - I am afraid, abusive is too stong a word for an assumption. There was nothing abusive posted by anyone in this topic to my knowledge, including myself.

"latter gods" where all man-made was what my postings would have read in SD1 & not as an existing factor as the discussions where on SD3 and SD4. There was a desperate war of thoughts to prove and disprove GODs, which was leading, atleast me, nowhere.

GOD is an illusion created by man for a better social order to be run by the fear of the unknown. I remember Osho's words in his praise of Jesus when he said "Jesus is the world's best marketing strategist, for he made man beleive there is HELL and HEAVEN to go to after death, based on whether man lives a BAD or GOOD life (as defined by his preachings). At HELL one will suffer and at HEAVEN there will unlimited supply of wine given by beautiful women!!" and that drove all men towards living a GOOD Life as per his preachings!

I guess that says all abt GOD and its likes.

Mar 21, 2007 5:03 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

Ganesh

I humbly disagree with your comment. My comment was to do with how you lead your individual life. All scriptures speak about salvation - heaven, nirvana, oneness with brahman, enlightenment - call it what you will.

Most faiths hold out the promise of inducement to do good -spend afterlife in heaven amidst houries and wine or spend an eternity in hell boiling in oil or being skewered over a fire. Hinduism, specifically the Manusmriti, is also guilty of this concept of heaven and hell.

Like I have always held in earlier posts, I do not believe in the philosophy of a heaven and hell post demise. Instead, I believe in karma which is the natural law of cause and effect. I believe if I do good, I am impelled to continue doing good and I evolve into a better person. My incentive is that one day with gradual practice I become one with a universal being that welcomes me back to its arms. Therefore I believe that there is no afterlife in eternity. The afterlife is spent in some world or the other, probably on earth or on mars for all I know, discharging my karma. It may sound far fetched and unbelievable but, hey that is my personal belief. The afterlife simply ceases when I have discharged all karma, boith the good and the bad of it and I head to the void.

When I said follow any system you are comfortable with, I actually and really mean "do as you please". Yes, you will be following your own principles and yes, karma will catch up with you and teach you the folly of your ways if you violate any natural law, because you are finally responsible for your actions. You can escape man made law, not the natural law. That is the law of cause and effect that you will learn and learn from as well.

Cheers
S

Mar 21, 2007 6:20 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

Sumanth,

Well said and exactly the right thing.

Cause and Effect - is a Natural Law & it can neither be tweeked or amended or for that matter played around with by man. Infact no natural law (laws of life) can ever be changed by man in-time or any-time.

Jesus once said "you cant turn a grey hair black", where is the question of turning the Laws of Life?

Cheers

Mar 22, 2007 6:41 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

Sumanth,

To state that most faiths are guilty of the concept of conceptualising hell and heaven could be demeaning 'the larger understanding of these formulators'.

They knew for sure, that its a tall ask for every man in this planet to be able to comprehend the higher order - governed by the laws of life. But they still need an order to live - especially when the society was evolving in its nacent stages. Hence the only option would have been to conceptualise god, heaven and hell and convincingly perculate it to the society. To convincingly perculate it to the society they have used their extraordinary wisdom to woove hell and heaven in its scheme of things with hidden puzzles when unveiled will reveal the true essence of the 'laws of life'.

Their intention being a noble one to bring in a social order, which is why we have grown up to be the current civilised world today at large.

Mar 22, 2007 7:16 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

Its just my personal opinion Bharat, no offense meant to any faith.

If that was how you interpreted it, my apologies to all faiths. Sorry folks...

Cheers
S

Mar 22, 2007 7:35 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

Hey, not at all. Didnt even treat it as an offence towards any faith.

I am just trying to explore the rational and thought-process on why they would have formulated these aspects.

cheers
Bharath

Private Reply to Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

Mar 22, 2007 7:59 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Hari Krishnan Prabhakar

What has been preached by Buddha, IS Sanatana Dharma seen from a certain angle. What has been preached by Jesus (Isha), IS Sanatana Dharma seen from another angle. Both have not created any religion, only men did after them. The teachings are by no means different, it's the angles that are different. Just as a clean sweep of the present Hinduism should be made and come to Sanatana Dharma, clean sweep should also be made of religions created after the teachings of Jesus and Buddha and come back to the primitive message which is that of Sanatana Dharma. As Sri Ramakrishna has said : "All those clothes will disappear, and at the end only the Sanatana Dharma will stay."

Science obeys Sanatana Dharma, in that it is the discovery of the laws of Nature. It helps man in his quest for knowledge and in the disappearance of false beliefs and superstitions. Science has presently reached the discovery that everything is one physically speaking, that all can be analysed as one heap of waves or corpuscles. These waves or corpuscles simply take forms which appear and disappear and which moreover are seen differently by the beings.

For example, an ant does not perceive a horse in the same way as does a man. Hence it means that the perception of things is relative to the one who perceives and to his senses of perception. What one perceives is but a truth relative to the one who perceives but in the absolute it's just an illusion without absolute reality. Thus even on the physical plane, science can draw the same conclusions.

Besides the mind functions from perception which it receives from the world outside. And these perceptions, as we have just seen, are quite relative and finally illusory. How can the mind perceive the truth?? It's totally impossible! Senses are the creation of Nature, it's just Nature which is perceiving Itself, the illusion perceiving itself!

Science seen by the western world is confined to what is perceived by the senses, that is what is called 'material'. In other words, it stops to Bhuh. It has not reached yet the subtle plane, bhuvah, which is the cause of the physical and material sphere, or so few. What to say of Svah! These two spheres have also their scientific laws and obey also to the Sanatana Dharma, being in the field of Nature. The Rishis of yore have exposed these laws and the experiences acquired in these fields, just as they have exposed the laws of the physical sphere. It stops in the field of waking, but has not gone into that of dream or of deep sleep and when it enters the field of dreams, what it expose is not scientific but of the sphere of conjectures, guess.

To make a distinction between science, philosophy, morals, religion and logic, etc� all this is purely illusory and mislead man all the more.

Everything is "Sanatana Dharma". All these terms are but the attributes of the word "knowledge', Veda.

And one of the main thing is that we are all related, as we are all One.

Cheers,

Hari

Mar 22, 2007 5:22 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

The cause and effect. That reasons for this being natural was nicely stated. When I was about to accept that point I ended up in newer confusion,

I had this observation. That is, every "EFFECT" is the "CAUSE" of the "EFFECT" to come. In a similar way every "CAUSE" by itself is the effect of the previous "EFFECT".

This is something we practically see at all times. If that is the case, then "CAUSE" and "EFFECT" are only different states of something observed at different instances. One can pin point to an action as "this is the cause" or "this is the effect" only from where their observation started.

If that is so, "Cause" and "effect" or the vice versa is a set of activities that is decided as "Cause" or "effect" based on TIME.

Which brings us back to TIME being the only Natural Law that exists.

Mar 22, 2007 7:33 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

Time is quantified by man, how come it is a natural law?

unless ofcourse "eternity of this universe" is what is refered as time. and that too if its so, it(if time - eternity of the universe) is the super set of all and how can that be a law.

its just the all encompassing factor in which the law of life exist.

BTW - to me the eternity of the universe is LIFE.

Mar 22, 2007 9:52 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BC, nicely put.

One cannot discuss anything without some kind of reference point. No this is not against what you said. As human beings we need some kind of static "name" to agree on something. I cannot talk about other living and non-living
things for I do not know how this is percieved by them.

With everything being part of what we learn and acquire as knowledge, the only "known" variable is "time".

We can call it "Life" with everything included in it including the nothing. That gives it a "animated" meaning.

We can call it "Thing" which would give a "static" reference.

These are all attributes to make us understand.

Mar 23, 2007 3:51 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

bruce lee, the martial arts exponent was teaching a student the secret of jeet kune do, a martial arts technique that he founded.

when explaining a point to the student, lee suddenly pointed to the moon and asked the student what he saw... the student spoke about the steadfastness of lee's finger.

to which lee retorted, "focus on the finger and you will surely lose the beauty of the moon."

cheers
s

Mar 23, 2007 5:26 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

ha ha.. good one, Sumant. The scene is from the movie, Enter the Dragon.

One will surely agree with you on the point that what matters is what the message and essence of it, rather than the name we associate it with. TIME, LIFE wat ever is just like the finger, as rightly put.

But, at the same time, I am sure you would have also heard of the Saptha Vada Nyaya or the principle of 7 vadas. Wherein the 7th vada satiaties the hunger for a man, but by directly giving the 7th vada, the same satiation cannot be achieved. One needs to eat the first 6 vadas and only then the 7th vada will satiate the hunger. likewise, only when the fundamentals of the concept is clarified can its derivatives be explained/understood/assimilated.

Hence the detailed discussion on this aspect before we plunge into assimilating the larger perspective.

Now this is needed for the purist. Because in my opinion the society has 2 kinds of people in all aspects of life. The purist who understands in depth of a subject and then adapts to it. The non-purist who accepts a thing and moves on without questioning and adapting his life with it.

For example - a doctor is a purist who understands why/how/what of human body and thereby he treats himself to an extent and also contributes to others by treating them. Whereas I has a non-purist in that subject just accept what he says and adapt my life with his recommendations on medical aspects of life.

What is important here is the doc by probing so much comes back and contributes to the society MORE than to himself with his learnings...

the same applies in our discussion too - potentially. The man who seeks the most will probably come back and do his bit as a purist to this society at large, on a later date. And maybe that's why the details - including the finger, the hand that holds the finger and the mind which directs the hand to point the finger is that much more important in the 1st place before looking at the glorious moon and realising its true perspective.

Cheers

Mar 23, 2007 6:12 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

well said indeed

its all perspective man ...

or perhaps methinks, i am just too cynical and bored ...

but anyways, onwards and upwards ...

Mar 23, 2007 7:03 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

pls dont get bored... go ahead with your sharings on the vedas, dude.

we all are keen, do bring in the next aspect that u deem fit.

waiting for more...

Mar 26, 2007 3:26 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

Looks like everyone here has taken a holiday.
Hope the mouring of India's loss in the WC Cricket ends and SD-Part4 begins.. LOL

Mar 26, 2007 6:21 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Yeah. Was on a long mental vacation.

Wonder where everyone else has vanished.

I guess if we are to discuss SD as the topic suggests, I guess anything goes.. I mean, from the definition, SD is that vast in scope.. pretty much includes everything you can ever imagine. So I guess we need to have all opinions heard, irrespective of how strong they are.

Bharat

Mar 26, 2007 7:11 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BP,This is what "rekindling the fire" means probably. :)

Anyways, let me wait till the popularity of "Blessing and Cursings" the Indian cricketers end. We need people like gyro to participate. SC I do not know where he went.

Mar 26, 2007 7:36 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Ram seems to have posted on 20th march. That isnt that far back.

I didnt realise SD was about male domination, but I see only men posting on here ;-)

Wierd, isnt it? Either women arent interested in this topic, or dont want to post here or we are generally talking crap.

Perhaps there is some other reason, but why arent women posting on here?

:-)

Cheers

Bharat

Mar 26, 2007 8:29 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

The women folk did try. I do remember when the talk suddenly jumped about AIDS in the first part. Then it kind of fizzled out.

But I guess they are viewing it.

Also, this thread serves no immediate "social cause",we(the bunch of us in this thread) are at controversy at all times. Probably SD threads looks like our TV serials( Never ending) and like those serials the villians turn good only to be turned villianish in the next cycle.

And it goes on and on and on....

But I am thinking with all our historical facts, we have never seen what the child mortality rates were in those days. Could this be why we had reasons to introduce other forms of child bearing "technologies"?

Mar 28, 2007 4:51 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

sorry folks, was fooling around elsewhere... been sort of here and there...

will post some stuff later today or tomorrow... continuing where i left off...

cheers
s

Mar 28, 2007 7:33 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Dear all - I would participate in the discussion after some time. Pl. continue as usual.

Cheers!

Mar 30, 2007 10:27 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

You are probably right Ganesh. Imagine 334 views but just 46 posts. That is about 15%, isnt it?

Ram, Sumanth, Get back soon, we cant do without the gyan gurus on here.

Here is something someone posted on the Singapore Sling site and some of my ramblings.. Feel free to comment or read the original...

The story posted, which is aparently from the upanishads, was -->
"The story is of a salt doll that used to live in a jungle.One day,somebody told her of the existence of the ocean and how it was something whose bottom could not be fathomed and whose shores could not be seen, something that was so huge that it was impossible to guage its power.This intrigued the doll and she wanted to see, meet and understand the ocean.After travelling a great distance, she finally came to the ocean and was amazed at the infinite waves and the humungous nature of the ocean.The doll jumped into the ocean in a bid to understand the ocean and started going deeper and deeper inside the ocean till her salty being diffused into the ocean and there was now just the ocean and no more of this doll.The doll was now a part of the ocean.
This story metaphorically shows what we are and what Para Brahma is.The Para Brahma is the ocean ,the jungle is the physical world around us,the journey to the ocean is our search of ourselves and finally the merger with the ocean is the culmination of our search.We exist in the ocean as ourselves or as salt and also simultaneously as the ocean and we exist as ourselves,or the salt,or the ocean ..in dual existence.When we achieve this state of culmination and experience it, we are in a state of bliss.This is what is the journey of the spirits."

My take on all this -->
1. I've always wondered why the ocean would spew out salt dolls in large numbers when the aim was to go back and dissolve in the ocean.. Wont it save a lot of effort to just remain dissolved?
2. Doesnt sound to me like there is too much reason behind coming out of an ocean just to be dissoved again in it, unless there is nothing else to do.
3. Agreed. Now the salt dolls keep dropping out because of old wishes or whatever unfulfilled stuff. But what about initially, when there were no such wishes. Who spewed them out, and why?
4. Do we really forget our essence or do we pretend at some level? I mean, forgetting is kinda like devolving, isnt it? Why would we devolve and then evolve? Always wondered about that...

Something on there under "Is spirituality necessary"... --> http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?confid=1386&topicid=749697

Bharat

Apr 03, 2007 6:07 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Why God Created The World ~ By Paramahansa Yogananda

http://www.meilach.com/spiritual/yogananda/yoga06.html

Apr 03, 2007 11:50 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BP,
my take is that
as long as we divide the IT as "materilaistic" and "non-materialistic" , "physical" and "sublimal" or for that matter , as long as we "separate","segregate","divide" IT,we will end up with such stories.

Apr 04, 2007 7:06 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Yea Ram. Yogananda always had a way with words.

Ganesh, it is fun to have people think on those lines.

Bharat

Apr 04, 2007 7:25 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Yogananda does have an assertiveness in what he writes.

My take on all of these is

why only earth being habitated?
If it is seen that the earth has come a long way and has shown such great advancement from the time it was created then why not other planets too?

Every creation need some kind of destruction. So what was destructed to get earth created as such?

Why should the politicians be blinded more than any other human?

Apr 07, 2007 4:43 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

Ganesh sir...

Excellent questions. I think Basab had asked earlier on this thread or SD 3 if we had read Erich von Daniken.

Whilst I am no great fan of von Daniken's writings, I will certainly concede that the arguments he put forth - on life outside earth, and more importantly, very highly evolved and intelligent life forms, far more advanced than the race of humans - are quite convincing.

Anyways, to attempt to answer your question - what was destroyed to create the earth as such - with a scriptural reference, the short answer is "no one knows"

The rig veda at 10.129, also known as the famous nAsadIya sUktam essentially speaks about an indescribable deep stillness in the beginning that defied approach by anyone. There was no death or immortality, just a glowing splendour that was supposedly too dark to be perceived. Out of that stillness, creation arose but the seer who wrote it also admits to ignorance about the process since everything arose after creation, even the 'gods' themselves!!!

To answer the question with a scientific reference, let me ask you another question first - which theory do you subscribe to as regards the creation of the universe? We can then discuss on those lines.

Cheers
S

Apr 07, 2007 5:56 am

Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Basab Ghosh

Gentlemen (as I see only males participating on this thread),

This is by far the most responded to thread on this nework and is now on it's fourth chapter. I have not been following all that has been said here, just sampling randomly now and again.

I have seen people warning that something said here might displease the followers of some religions, Sumanth apologising for being misunderstood on that count, but again someone expounding that Buddha and Isha followed Sanathan Dharma to expound their teachings. Please consider that even that statement may anger followers of these two religions as we are usually brought up to believe our own religion is the best among all religions and is the result of the originator's (only in case of Hinduism, we don't know who) original thought process / spiritual enlightment.

I believe, stripped down to the core thoughts or principles, all major religions espouse the same principles, but layers and layers of social norms, do's and don'ts, rituals et al imposed on these by the traders of religion have obscured the reality so much that we are ready to kill and be killed to impose on others our own religious beliefs and rituals to the exclusion of anything else.

I am not an agnostic or an atheist, but I believe that human 'Dharma' is far removed from the face of the religions that we see in our everyday lives. If we can embrace the core principles without falling into the traps laid by any religeous books or rituals, we can make this earth a much better place to live in.

Cheers!

Apr 07, 2007 7:26 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

well said basab, if we cut to the chase and subtract all the politically correct diatribe, it comes down to what you said... we are each responsible for our salvation or attaining heaven or whatever it is that we beleive in is finality... books and teachers only show us the way, not walk ti for us...

Apr 07, 2007 8:40 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Basab Ghosh

Thanks Sumanth, for me, it is far more important to feel good in this life for being helpful and not harming others, than any thing I may be rewarded with in afterlife.

Unfortunately the books have been interpreted over ages by teachers with vested interests to poison the minds of the believing and the gullible. We are bearing the fruits of that poisoning today, but still refuse to see the light!

Apr 08, 2007 6:20 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

basab

can you share with us your perception of sanatana dharma and how one should conduct their life?

cheers
s

Apr 08, 2007 9:13 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

All.

The idea here is not to convince someone else, or sound politically correct or stuff like that.

Go ahead and say what you want... and if someone gets pissed, I presume they can stay away.

Cheers

Bharat

Apr 08, 2007 9:27 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Anyone with time can go and read the first 3 parts of this thread -->
Part1: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=598540&confid=660
Part2: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=692228&confid=660
Part3: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=773241&confid=660

Cheers

Bharat

Apr 09, 2007 5:41 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Sumanth,
I have read long time back one of Daniken's books. In short I am yet to convinced on the extra terrestrial thing. But I am amazed about those huge hill painitings he had shown.

So Rig veda says that there was a homogenous state which got disturbed to bring in the balanced states of creation and destruction. That is good to know. But I still ponder what would have been the catalyst for such a change?

As for the creation of universe, I feel we have been expanding and contracting only expand again. But all, I mean everything including the so called "TIME", gets lost only to beging again.

Apr 09, 2007 5:45 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Basab,

Welcome back.

true there are only 4 of us here thumping the grounds of SD.

My whole take on the "religion" subject is that, Religion is what makes a society cohesive and moves it forward/backward(depending on the way you see it). Can we live without it, I doubt. There would exist some form of rule that binds a society.

Apr 09, 2007 6:51 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Basab Ghosh

How does one define religion? Some rituals? Something which puts the fear of God in your life? Some chantings? I don't believe that is it.

There must be some rules to bind the society together you say, but what are these basic rules? Is it the Suttee burning? Is it the social outcasting of widows? Is it the woman having to prove rape with eye witness accounts of four men? Is it women being stoned to death for being raped? Do we need these religious rules? Did we need it ever?

My basic premise in life is never to knowingly harm anyone by my actions, be truthful and honest in dealings with others and also not to accept dishonesty and wrong dealings from any one. I believe in calling a spade a spade. I think that is good enough religion for me.

Cheers!

Apr 09, 2007 6:54 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

GR - I thought there are more than 4 here!!

Apr 09, 2007 8:31 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BC,
SC,Gyro,BP,BC makes it only 4. MeSelf is discounted.

Apr 09, 2007 8:42 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Basab,

What I see as religion is it is a set of rule that is defined for making a society. While one can look at all the evils in a religion at certain points of time and crib about it, we should also appreiciate that these evils gave rise to newer religions and cults that avaoided those evils.

If everyone started calling a spade. a spade then there would not be a "moving forward" at all. We cannot avoid frictional force in our daily life.

Again honesty, wrong doing, sin everything is a percieved term. We had this discussion called "blessing,curses...." where a bunch of us(again mainly the four or five of us) discussed what is blessing what is curse.

In fact if there should be a blessing there should be a curse related to it. For example if me knowing driving is a blessing, it is the curse for a person who knows driving because his work is threatened.

Apr 10, 2007 3:10 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharath Cola

GR - When you write MeSelf, capitalising M & S, it stands for MS - Master of Sanadana :-)

So its the Master with his 4 students :-)))))

Apr 10, 2007 7:01 am

Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Basab Ghosh

GR - If your acquiring a skill becomes the reason for someone, somewhere losing a job, will you refrain from acquiring that skill? If everyone followed that rule, this world will come to a standstill.

However, that has very little to do with being honest or calling a spade a spade. In fact, the ability to do so allows us to understand dogmas, so that we can leave those behind and move forward. If we keep deluding ourselves with half truths and outright lies, we keep going around in our own circle of comfort without ever coming out of it. The recent trends have shown that these circles are recursive and we are being drawn tighter and tighter into an increasingly intolerant and fundamentalist way of thinking.

And please, not all newer religions are better than the older ones, they bring their own brand of evil with them! I find it best to ignore these religious dictums and follow what my own sense of right and wrong dictate.

Cheers!

Apr 10, 2007 3:16 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BC, hmmm.. one cannot disguise humility in any form I suppose ;)

Apr 10, 2007 3:23 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BG, my point there was that being truthful and calling spade a spade would result in "islanding" oneself from others. And if everyone does it we all will be in our own islands.

For example, when a child who is two year old draws something on a piece of paper and calls it a circle, eventhough it is not, what will a parent say? Will he/she stick to "I will call a 'spade a spade'"? Again this example is to show how trivially we are dishonest sometimes.

IMHO,Like how "Destruction" and "Creation" are "inseparable" so are other states in Nature like happiness and unhappiness, Likes and dislikes, knowledge and ignorance.

Private Reply to Sanjay Sharma

Apr 10, 2007 4:42 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sanjay Sharma

Basab, Ganesh....
Hello to you all. "Sanathan Dharma" is Buzz word..hovering around all the sections of our society...it gives us strength, gives us vision and gives us safety...This has been with us for years to gether. OUr forefathers were taking its shelter and our entire social structure is weaved around this word...
Sounds erratic.....No??
For me too.........

Apr 10, 2007 4:46 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Basab Ghosh

Wouldn't it be better for the parent to draw a circle and guide the child to pencil over it and learn how a circle is to be drawn? Does that create a barrier between the child and the parent? I doubt.

Apr 10, 2007 5:26 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BG, thereby culling the creativity in a child? I guess none of us do.

Apr 10, 2007 5:30 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

welcome Sanjay.

There is no question that SD is weaved into everyone's life. The whole take on this issue started by Gyro in Part I is that, SD is not as definable as one think it is.

Apr 11, 2007 6:51 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Yup, isnt that easy to define SD, which increases the fun I guess. It is whatever you want it to be.

Bharat

Apr 16, 2007 8:18 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Have always wondered how SD evolved, assuming it isnt 313 trillion years old....

Bharat

Apr 17, 2007 5:11 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Could it have been probably in Buddha's time or a little earlier than that as an official SD. Till then there could have been many routes. This is just my guess

Apr 19, 2007 5:44 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

There were plenty of ways always... until Sankara came along and unified them all... and divided the Saguna part of SD into 6 schools of thought.

Not sure but I think they were:
1. Siva
2. Vishnu
3. Shakti
4. Ganesa
5. Subramanya
6. Surya

There there were always many other schools - Vedanta, Samkhya and tons of schools of Tantra... so...

Bharat

Apr 25, 2007 10:26 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Rajaram

Sanathana Dharma Principles

Prajnaanam Brahma , Aham Brahmaasmi , That Thvam Asi , Ayam Aathma

Lord is Supreme Intelligence.
I am Consciousness.
Thou art That.
I am The Soul, Jeevaathma which is a spark of Paramaathma.

Meditation - Slokam = sthothram = extolling The GOD.
Upachaaram = 16 (shodasa) ways of Pooja (serving The GOD).
Praajaapathyam = abdication of of all earthly treasures and live simply like a pious mendicant eating very frugally.
Chaandrayana Vratham = eating frugally during the bright fortnight of Moon and gradual abstinence from food during the dark fortnight of Moon.
Inculcate Holistic vision; concentrate on the path of moral and spiritual guidance towards liberation (moksha).

Vedas are the only valid scriptures that lead us along the path towards the spiritual goal of Moksha.

Bhakthi (spiritual devotion) is focused love towards Almighty devoid of all desires. Theism is religious fervor based on absolute faith in GOD.
Wholehearted surrender to GOD paves the way towards salvation, escape from trans migratory cycle of repeated births and deaths.

All that we see is temporary - jaathasya maranam dhruvam = all that has a beginning has an end including sun, moon, planets etc, except The Supreme Almighty God who is Adi - Madhya - Antha Rahitha = One who has no beginning, no middle, and no end.

Jeevathma and Paramathma can be separate (dwaitha), they can be one and the same, inseparable (adwaitha), they can have separate identities Jeevathma as a humble servant and Paramathma as exalted Master, yet coexisting (visishtaadwaitha), Jeevathma is a small spark separated from Paramathma and yearning to merge in Paramathma as a child craving for mother's lap Sudha adwaitha, Pushti Maarga), Jeevathma and Paramathma in an illusory state of separateness to ordinary mortals, but seers realize the oneness of both (dwaitha- adwaitha).

Achinthyaa Bhedha Abhedha. Just as the soul is craving like a child to join the mother, the god is eagerly waiting to liberate the soul and merge it into the eternal Paramathma.

Artha = earn money honestly;
Kaama = enjoy the pleasures of life righteously;
Dharma = lead the life with detachment, without ego and help others who are less fortunate;
Moksha = finally step back, seek liberation, retire.

Avoid excess , it only leads to suffering.
Discharge your responsibilities to your parents, to yourself, to your family, towards society, to fellow human beings, to your progeny, to wise sages, rishis etc and lastly to GOD.

Sanathana Dharma is eternal, it has no beginning, so it has no end. It is nurtured by Gods, Swamis, Rishis, Seers, Sages, Vedas, Upanishads, Epics, Intellectuals, thinkers, philosophers, and modern scientists. Science and Sanathana dharma are co equals. Sanathana Dharma is original, adaptive, constantly evolving, all embracive and all assimilating. All religions are off shoots of Sanathana Dharma which is a huge banyan tree.

-------------by Dr. BalaKrishna Murthy Ramaraju

Private Reply to Rajaram

Apr 26, 2007 2:15 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

nice bullet points...

Apr 28, 2007 5:06 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Rajaram

Thanks Bharat ji

Private Reply to Rajaram

Apr 29, 2007 3:19 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Was wondering on your opinion on this question -> Which is more important: Religion (or) Spirituality? And why?

Apr 30, 2007 9:04 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Which is more important: Religion (or) Spirituality? And why?

Ans : Spirituality.

Religion can be politically influenced and Spirituality is completely unbiased status of mind. Religion would divide peoples and spirituality would integreate souls. Religious people are judgemental and spritual leader sees no difference among living creatures of world.

Actually there are three ways of looking at our life.

1. Whatever pain I undergo in the present life is due to someone else ignorance/anger/greedy/ foolishness etc. Meanse someone cuases problems to me just because they are self centered selfish peoples.

2. Whatever happens to me in the present life, whether good or bad, is purely based on my previous karma. So, I am to be blamed for that and try to apply remedial measures to have very good life in next birth.

3. NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING. All mayas performed by ultimate supreme. SO, just lead the life with Service minded, showering love to all living creatures, Give knowledge or whatever valuable one possess to poor or peoples live in spiritual slum area, Purify more and more with Meditative mind and Realize super natural.

Spiritual person comes under third category.

May 05, 2007 1:17 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

I dont really like that "Nobody is responsible.." statement, but yeah, this is a free world...

Cheers

May 07, 2007 4:11 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Gyro, in your third point, you say "showering love to all living creature" does that mean we cannot hurt any living creature at all?
you know where this is leading to . don't you ? :)

May 09, 2007 10:34 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Bharat - It is very very difficult to reach the third stage. Unless completely surrender to ultimate supreme it is not possible to adopt this concept. Lord krishna tells Arjuna tht he is not responsible for killing his relatives though Arjuna fight and kills them. It means that Lord Krishna takes entire responsibility on his shoulder for whatever happens in the world. So a fully ripped spiritual person will not try to find fault on others (Ist stage) or himself (second stage) and simply do his duty without any concern about the outcome.

GR - Krishna delivers the whole scripture of Gita to Arjuna ONLY TO PREPARE HIM TO FIGHT !! Does that mean lord Krishna not love anyone in the opponent side (including Bhismar, Dronacharya, Aswathama, Karna etc) and whoever is being killed in Pandavas side during the war? Understanding the intricacies of Dharma is a complicated subject.

(If Mahabhratha is story the episode of holy Gita would have occurred in temple or in top of mountain - Himalayas or in dense forest and not in the war field)..... Arambichitanya :D

May 11, 2007 2:41 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

I have already established elsewhere why Krishna had to start the fight eventhough the person(s) who we think is in the righteous side(The Pandavas) did not want to.

And I have also established how cunningly the war was won.

For a guy who came for help only when Draupadi yelled out for help,waiting only to be disrobed till then, he seems to have readily accepted the war(justiying it) after just one/two visits as an envoy to Dhuryodhana's kingdom. That too having been teased had to become angry and show his viswaroobham .

So Krishna's role, in the whole war,IMHO, is very personal from that point of view.

It is rather disheartening that he who knew that there is going to be loss of people still went and did things to satisfy his own personal agenda.

For a person who said, to quote from "Karnan",
"mananum nAnane, makkaLum nAnae,
maram,chedi, kodigaLum nAnae"

To kill his own self or part thereof is more like cleansing himself from the negativity that was lingering within.

May 23, 2007 2:41 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

He didnt look like he was cleansing any sins... more like having fun and helping out dudes he liked and whacking those he didnt like... and so on...

Bharat

May 23, 2007 3:08 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

The cleansing stuff comes as a result of the previous Karnan song.

Well as a person who wanted to help the one who sat near krishna's feet. He went with it in full swing.

But what does this tell us about SD? Are any part of SD?

We have revered two kings neither a legal hier to the throne and have accepted their capabilities and their incapableness. But when it comes to the other side we find fault with great warrior(s) who were against them.

Does this mean that if we are to follow SD then the things done by these two kings are justified? OR we do not need any justification at all. Things when they happen happened in the way they have had and will happen the way they will.

If that is so, then why did we learn
Patti-vikramidityan( a tamil version of Vikramaditya and Betal)
where patti does prove

Vidhiyai madhiyAl vella mudiyum(that what is destined can be overcome by smartness)?

May 24, 2007 7:17 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

It is the human tendency to find fault with whom they don't like and see only positive side of person they like. It is due to biased status of mind. But SD never tries to make its followers to develop such biased mind. It gives the panoramic view of everything and leaves us to choose based on our intellectual. As I have written earlier Lord Krishna did not help only to Pandavas. The entire army of Lord Krishna is given to Duriyodhana as asked by him. When we find fault with Duroyodhana or Ravana it is not because they are on the other side. It is mainly due to their arrogance and greediness.

God does not program our life to function like a robot in the name of fate. Yes, Karma is influenced time and again from one birth to another birth based on previous deeds. Assume a bull is tightened in a post with a rope with its size of 10 meter. This 10 meter is the fate. If tries maximum it can travel to the radius of 10 meter. Whether to go 1 meter or 9 meter or 10 meter is to be decided by the bull. It is given with the energy to utilize its maximum freedom upto 10 meter. If it does not try and simply sit that is not the fault of rope. Fate in our life is like that. If we know our success rate is 10% we can increase the number of attempts so that the volume of success would increase even the percentage remains same.

A person can think of a prostitute while attending the discourse of Gita. Fate is not influencing the mind of a person here to make the person to think like that. There is freedom and how to employ that freedom whether good or bad is with one�s hand. If our fate is to fail all the 100 times still we can try to succeed any number of times so that the result of effort becomes fate of next birth therefore more success in new life with less effort.

May 25, 2007 2:33 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

if it is human tendency to find fault with others well, I rest my case then. We all know that krishna and rama were (even from a pious point of view) humans. They did not say they were gods.

For a person(krishna) who knew that the war is going to be won by cunningness and will have a heavy toll of his own near and dear fighting for the other side, he could have very well talked to both parties and said hey this is how the war will end. But he did not.

Also, when we read that Krishna was ready to be charioteer for pandavas and accepted to give his army to kauravAs, we do see him as a person who did not want the war to happen. It is like him saying I tried twice and failed so let things happen as they will.

So if the omnipresent god is not an influence on the actions we take then isn't it true that the omnipresence itself is an approximation?

what determines the fate of anyone? His actions and reactions? Are fate the reactions of ones own actions? If that is so, how can we say someone is destained to do things and it is the fate.

THe bull example, if we have seen this practically, the bull(s) most of the time try to go to the 10 meters radius. Also the rope is tied on the other end in such a way that when the bull goes round and round and round the rope shortens. If fate is the rope then what can the point of orignation be called as or the person who gave the 10 meter be called as?

Jun 13, 2007 6:17 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Fate being determined by god?

Whatever happened to free will?

Bharat

Jun 13, 2007 7:26 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Wouldn't Free will itself be a result of fate?

http://www.ryze.com/postdisplay.php?messageid=579254&confid=660

Jun 19, 2007 12:01 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Jun 19, 2007 5:50 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Gyro, nice writeup.
what is missing in each of your question is the very idea you are destined to do such things itself is what is Fate all about.

When you say inspite of locking the door if a house is burgled, There are two unique instances of fate. One locking the door being fate for the burglar to use extra strength to open, and to the owner that even after locking the house was burgled.

I agree with you that fate can never be changed.

But haven't you seen, even when enough caution is given , things do happen, like getting burnt on fire eventhough we do know fire causes burns.

Jun 21, 2007 6:18 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

well, free will.... of whom, I dont know, but free will runs this world, not any pre-determined fate...

Bharat

Jun 22, 2007 10:24 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

May be the result of free will of first birth of a person becomes pre-determined fate in the next birth and continues as chain reaction from thereon I suppose. :-)

Jun 24, 2007 12:14 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

Well said Gyro...

Jun 25, 2007 3:31 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

How can any birth be said as first or next or last?

�Jaatasya hi dhruvo mrutyuh
Dhruvam janma mrutasya cha� -(Gita, Chapter2, sloka 27)

�Death is certain of that which is born; birth is certain of that which is dead.�
-- Copied from http://www.geocities.com/bhikka/Verse20to23.html

Welcome back guys. We are still missing couple more. where art thou?

Jul 01, 2007 10:55 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

yeah... I guess everybody was swamped by work.. atleast I was...

so yeah, I would like to know how that first birth comes about.. :-)

anyways, that also means by tuning what you do now, you can create realities you like in the future..... which kinda sounds more like freewill to me...

Bharat

Jul 02, 2007 8:43 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

But if we think freewill is something that we can create to mold the future, isn't that very relatively speaking. For what constitutes future?

Jul 03, 2007 1:45 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

And what constitutes past?

Jul 03, 2007 2:49 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

To digress a bit,
I was reading Brief history of Time, some years back and came up with this poem/limmerick

Past and Future I have one,
but the present I have none,
Not a bit am I worried,
for it is buried,
in the future in a cast,
what I will then call as my past.

Jul 05, 2007 1:50 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

I guess past are present are how we measure or relate to time. But assuming Time isnt just a magazine, what exactly is it?

Bharat

Jul 05, 2007 4:20 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

"it" is "the present".

Aug 03, 2007 5:53 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

The eternal present, is it?

Wake up guys. I just tip-toed away for a month and notice nobody has been around for a month...

Cheers

Bharat

Aug 09, 2007 9:53 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Dhynalingam in Coimbatore

Completed in 1999, Dhyanalingam is a sacred shrine of divine energy. It is the largest lingam in the world, and the first of its kind in 2,000 years to be fully consecrated. The Dhyanalingam is not a place for worship or rituals; rather it is the powerhouse of primordial energy that radiates the different vibrations of the seven chakras to augment the spiritual potential of all who come here. In the metaphysical sense, it is a guru, an energy center of tremendous proportions and a space where the spiritual transformation can happen in an instant. The multi-faith temple housing it is built with traditional materials (no concrete or steel) and ancient techniques ensuring that it will last for at least 5,000 years. The temple is open daily to persons of all faiths.

Sep 01, 2007 6:53 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Nice pic of the Dhyanalingam Ram.

So anyone has any suggestions of what to discuss next?

Let me sugggest discussing "Time" and "Space".

Cheers,

Bharat

Sep 04, 2007 7:48 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Time and Space
===============
Here are my first questions:
1) Is Space a product of Time
2) Is Time a product of Space
3) Do they exist together or in different planes?

Sep 16, 2007 5:14 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Rajaram

Hinduism originated over 3000 years ago. Hinduism claims to have many founders, teachers and prophets who claim first hand experience of God.

When Hindus promote the idea of spirituality as a principle rather than a personality, they call this Brahman.

Private Reply to Rajaram

Sep 17, 2007 1:33 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Rajaram. that would make the religion very "global". Every other religion would be part of what we now call as "hinduism". Would that be true?

Sep 18, 2007 3:38 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Sumanth Cidambi

Ganesh

On the first set of questions - I would like to think space is a product of time...

for example, "In the beginning (time), there was nothing (non-space[?]). . ."

Then the big bang happened and space was created...

In astrology or astronomy, we also refer to a planetary or star position at a point in time and not vice versa

Our limited understanding provides for them to co-exist and not as one without the other...

Cheers
S

Sep 18, 2007 11:05 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Regarding time:

Every second repeats itself every 60 SECONDS. (60seconds = 1 minute).
Every minute repeats itself every 60 MINUTES. (60 minutes = 1 hour).
Every hour repeats itself every 24 HOURS. (24 hours = 1 day).
Every day repeats itself every 365 DAYS. (365 days = 1 year).
Every year repeats itself in: ? ? ? ? YEARS ?

Sep 18, 2007 2:14 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

SC,
hmmm.. nicely put.

Gyro,
what you say is true only when you quantify. The quality of a succeeding second is based on the quality of its predecessor. Therefore it would be difficult to say that the second repeated itself. dont't you think?

Sep 19, 2007 11:19 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

I think the theory of time evolved in mind to give some attributes to the endless cycle (infinity) or to quantify some periods.

just one silly question. What is actualy a 'time'. Is it the one the hands of clock shows to us daily or something else?

Jan 03, 2008 12:45 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Ping!

Anybody home?

Private Reply to amit patel

Jan 13, 2008 10:24 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

amit patel

Hey Ram !!!/ALL

can you let me know how is the horizon-international. as i got one offer and not sure aqbout it.

If any one knows about the company kindly let me know.

Kindly put me mail...
Thanks
amit.
coolamitpatel@rediffmail.com

Jan 15, 2008 10:16 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Havent really heard of Horizon international....

So cant tell... anyone else wants to help?

Cheers

Bharat

Jan 31, 2008 12:18 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Time is a magazine....

Feb 02, 2008 12:13 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

And what is it "Loaded" with??

Mar 04, 2008 1:13 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Read an interesting thread with only one person posting - on money and abundance... some parts of it are quite interesting and readable...

Private Reply to vasanth vasu

Mar 04, 2008 1:41 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

vasanth vasu

Interesting posts especially by Gyro Ganesh ram & Bharat. Unfortunately this thread goes way back and has lots of good content to participate one has to go through the archive �Sanadhana Dharma I onwards

Mar 26, 2008 2:35 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

So coming back to physics, the one part which is difficult to comprehend is not necessarily something coming out of nothing or almost nothing a moment 'before' the big bang.

The 'before' is in quotes, because actually there was no time at the moment - time itself seems to be a byproduct of the big bang and part of the very framework of this universe... so how do we know it was 'before' as the scientists seem to hint?

If there was no time until the big bang, and time came about as a consequence, how do we know the state existed 'before' the big bang?

Wake up folks, Physics hasnt yet come out with all the answers, we can atleast rant about them ;-)

Mar 27, 2008 3:12 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

How can one say Time is a product of BigBang when BigBang should have occured at certain point of time?

Mar 27, 2008 7:17 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Basab Ghosh

And who says there was nothing before the 'Big Bang'? What exploded with the big bang?

Mar 27, 2008 8:14 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Basab,

The point is well discussed and argued in micro and macro in SD Part 1, 2, 3 and 4 in various level. I would just put in a nutshell as follows:

Where am I from? Well, I�m from my parents. Where are they from? Their parents. Where the father of father of father of my first father is from? Ape. Where is ape from? Ameba, after crossing various levels. Where is ameba from? Water. Where is water from? Earth. Where is earth from? When the various gases are compressed under pressure it shows liquid state and from liquid when heavier elements are formed they formed the Earth. Where are those Hydrogen and helium from? Space. Where is space from? VACCUM.

So, I can say that I am from vacuum. But physics will disagree this. According to Physics out of vacuum only vacuum will come out. That is why scientists themselves proved the reason big bang theory wrong. So, either I�m wrong or physics.

-----

And this is what I wrote in my Ist Part of SD:

Science is what you see, practice, prove, conclude and than believe. But in case of GOD it is other way round. First, we believe, practice and than see. What could have been there beyond Big bang or Multiverse. Modern Science does not have answer for it. But we can imagine that beyond big bang or before cosmic evolution there could be only Vacuum ( Soonyam). Lord SHIVA represents this vacuum who is always seen in the penance pose (Silent like Vacuum) in the portraits. As per science, the characteristic of any thing in the world will change if it remain in the same position for millions of years ( like carbon changes to Diamond) and so when vacuum remained so many years some pressure developed in it which is called as SAKTHI. When Pressure mingled with Vacuum or Sakthi mixed with Shiva, five elements such as Air, Land, Fire, Sky, water born due to Chemical reactions. That five nature elements are represented as Ganapathi ( Athipathi for 5 ganangal). Then to magnetic power that is represented as Skandan ( Lord Murugan). It evolved up to human beings from Ameba.

(Interestingly the computer codings has this principle. '0' is Sivam and '1' is Sakthi. Rest of all other things such as text, graphics, animation, sound and motion are being formulated based on this only. These five elements can be considered as 'Ganangal'. Then to Internet like magnetic power in the universe which represents lord Muruga).

Mar 27, 2008 10:17 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
we have been through this a lot. Science is exploratory not "all explanatory". That is why many scientific theories change as we know more and more ( or less and less).

While philosophical theories or anything that we think is non scientific is a way to explain and appreciate what I cannot prove. Your Shiva,Shakthi and Skandan is one such. It makes it easy make people move on with their life than thinking about how we came.

The question "How anything is made" is a very common question for anyone who can think.

Vaccuum itself is devoid of pressure. According to your theory if Vaccuumm came under pressure to create something then that has to be questioned. Assuming that is true, then there should have been sometime for vaccuumm to counteract the pressure

Mar 27, 2008 1:35 pm

Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Basab Ghosh

By the way, vacuum is always under pressure from non-vacuum.

Gyro, what you are saying is steeped in Faith, which is sometimes blind. To have faith in something is good, it provides a peg for one's existence. Problem arises when someone wants to impose one's faith on others, by fallacious arguments or by force.

Why these arguments can be called fallacious, is because it is rooted in faith, not in logic.

Cheers!

Mar 27, 2008 2:02 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Hello Basab and GR - I am more interested to hear from both of you about the first part of my reply rather than the faith aspect.

Mar 28, 2008 3:55 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Gyro,
to say I came from Vaccuum is philosopically speaking that is.

Mar 28, 2008 6:48 am

Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Basab Ghosh

To say 'I came from vacuum' is a matter of faith, not logic.

Mar 28, 2008 8:14 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

If that is the case where is the Origin and what caused all five natural elements, logically or scientifically?

Mar 28, 2008 10:39 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Logically and Scientifically we have plausible theories only upto BIG BANG(someone please correct me here). Philosophically and according to Faith(s), we have assummed that "First THERE WAS Nothing"(very oxymoronic to talk about presence of Nothing) but makes it a very authoritative assumption.

Sumanth where art thou?

Private Reply to Baktha Mohan

Apr 01, 2008 9:06 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Baktha Mohan

the below site gives great details about Sanadhana dharma

http://www.dharmacentral.com/

Apr 01, 2008 1:26 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Nice site.

But there are things that I do not accept. First of all vegetarianism. The idea of vegetarianism came to the people of "now" India from the Jinas(Jains). We all know that the gods we worship were by themselves meat eaters. The rishis we have in our history had been meat eaters.

I would accept the fact ( from the video on the site) that the religion as hinduism was annhilated for over 1200 years. I would agree to the fact that of all the religions that we know of SD has been time-tested.

again Nice site.

Private Reply to charuhasan

Apr 01, 2008 2:21 pm

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

charuhasan

Sanathana Dharma leads by 133 votes to Zero. Read the next post

Apr 01, 2008 3:30 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

aiyA, that is only part IV, at the top of each thread the first post would have link to the previous discussions. Interested parties can skim through them as well.

Apr 28, 2008 7:29 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

So yeah, atleast physics seems to try to recognize that time is itself probably a by product of the big bang, like space....

this is where the whole time thingie mucks up my logic...

Apr 28, 2008 7:46 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

And yeah, apparently, logic itself exists within the framework of space-time....

Apr 28, 2008 7:49 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Anyone with time can go and read the first 3 parts of this thread, we made a heck a lot of noise on them -->
Part1: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=598540&confid=660
Part2: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=692228&confid=660
Part3: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=773241&confid=660

Cheers

Bharat

Apr 30, 2008 11:23 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Thanks for the link Bharat. Some time even I forget what I wrote. So it would be good exercise for me too to go through the links.

RC-->SD-->AIDS-->Premarital Sex-->who am I-->Story or Real?-->Drowpathy marriage with 5 panadavas-->Gita-->Mushroom: veg or NVeg?-->Male domination-->power of mind-->mantras-->Phrases of Vedas-->right or wrong-->Ravana-->Time-->Space-->Big bang-->know thyself-->......

Private Reply to vasanth vasu

May 02, 2008 7:14 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

vasanth vasu

Very nice thread and topics here at the SD but the Archive is lot so i am not able to follow the thread . Good work guys though
Cheers Vasanth

May 02, 2008 9:26 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Yeah one of the long threads in CN. I think I will take the whole thing and make a PDF. A good read if you are on a long travel. Any ideas how to format it?

May 03, 2008 12:21 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Yeah Ganesh, In fact, i was reading the first three threads over the last few days..

Made very good reading...

May 10, 2008 12:07 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Yeah takes a while to actually reading through all the threads...

There are a lot of wise men prowling around on here...

Cheers

Bharat

May 15, 2008 1:07 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

If time permits I would compose SD (combining all parts) in word document first then using 'PDF Online free' I can convert it into PDF format.

But I am in a dillema whether to edit unwated portions that deviated from actual topic or just do the entire episode without any editing.

May 15, 2008 6:06 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lavanya Karalkar

Gyro.. for everything there is a reason and reaction too even scientifically if I may quote Newton.

So if you want to do the PDF format, please take the whole part (oxymoron) of this thread and use Star writer (from google) which has a facility to convert the document into PDF format.

PS: LK(g) suggestions are LK(g)ish and if you feel you can take it or ignore it.

May 16, 2008 6:44 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

That suggestion is also going to be in that Pdf, aint it?

So yeah back to the eternal question most people ask - 'when are we going to run out of petrol?'

(or) perhaps

Why me, why now, why this?

(or) perhaps

The meaning of life (the monty python version)

or typically all that this thread has been trying to talk about - science, religion, space, time, and simply anything anyone wanted to say ...

Cheers,

May 16, 2008 10:00 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

I was thinking on the line of talking heads. But I want to learn flash scripting, can anyone tell me where I can get to learn that. Then we can make a olichitiram ,A talking documentary out of this thread.

May 16, 2008 10:14 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lavanya Karalkar

someone in my platform said
'Google is like GoD
you ask properly
What you want
And it gives you
What you want

but

But be careful to
specify clearly what you want
otherwise you will be
like the Midas King

May 29, 2008 6:01 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Talking heads reminds me of this really cool cartoon ramayana i saw recently...

apparently a japanese version, but still quite a bit as interesting - besides, is fun to see Ram fight with a discus or sword...

May 30, 2008 6:44 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

This is a very interesting discussion. why did you all stop writing here? mind blowing fundas! I have many many questions. will read each post and get back.

Private Reply to Raghav V

May 30, 2008 6:59 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Raghav V

Kilambitaya!! Kilambitaya!! @ Anu!!!

means Anu has started!! Just for fun Anu. Keep the questions rolling.

May 30, 2008 7:28 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

"Time and Space
===============
Here are my first questions:
1) Is Space a product of Time
2) Is Time a product of Space
3) Do they exist together or in different planes?"

I am on the same lines of thought like GR. sometime back, My dad told me; time and space are concepts of mind, without which the mind cannot function. When Mind stops creating such concepts reality is seen.

I wonder.. who sees the 'reality'? Then What is left as 'reality' to see? object is seen because the observer sees. this is like the question, egg came first or hen? crazy!

May 30, 2008 7:44 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

SCidambi had written..

"for example, "In the beginning (time), there was nothing (non-space[?]). . ."

Then the big bang happened and space was created..."

In the beginning of time... ------ WHO started Time? Whose mind started it?

There was nothing(non space[?]) ---- if there was no space what was there?

Then the Big Bang happened -- By the theory of cause and effect, there must've been a cause for the effect called big bang happened. Or the theory cause and effect must be a bullcrap. what was the cause for bigbang?

and space was created... ---- so who is the father and mother of space?

I wonder... too much of theory creations have distorted the fact..

May 30, 2008 8:05 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

haha. thanks Raghav.

May 30, 2008 10:55 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

I had given my POV on wha Chidambi was saying.

BTW, welcome to this thread ANU. The longest in CN that has been running for over two years. Most of us used to write regularly. Want of time is one issue if this thread does not move fast, But just like the tortoise this thread moves slow and steady.

The concept of NOTHING itself is relative. My view is if I have to describe a concept or phenom, I start with an assertion(assumption) or assert an assumption. By doing that , I tend to move out from a state of confusion to that point I want to state.

The very idea of chicken-egg problem will not be there once I start with an assertion "At first there was nothing".

Private Reply to stranger

May 31, 2008 4:50 am

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stranger

Sisters and Brothers,

I have made Sanathana Dharma Part I, Part II and Part III in PDFs (3 nos.) and I shall make the Part IV also in PDF once we move out to the next part. Anyone, who likes to have the PDF copy, please let me know your email address.

Nandri.
VV.

May 31, 2008 7:46 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

HI Venkat - That would be really a good job done.

I PM my email id to you. Please send me pdf format in that id.

May 31, 2008 10:02 am

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Bharat P

Isnt the start of time itself somehow linked into time? I mean, Start and end are concepts within time...

So if time started with the big bang, there wasnt really a before, was there? So cant really tell which came first - the big bang or the nothingness....

May 31, 2008 9:16 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

To say "At first there was NOTHING" is an assumed assertion is my point of view. Like I had said, that will leave something no one knows about aside.

Jun 03, 2008 3:42 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

"At first there was NOTHING"

'At First' - Indicate the beginning of Time. Time is percieved by mind. According to this statement, Big Bang is an Imagination of a Mind. (whose mind? I dont know). Entire discussion starts and evolves and grows, because there are minds analysing it.

To analyse something beyond mind ( which is made of two coordinates of time and space ), what do I need? How to find the origin of universe then?

crazy logic! How should I understand this?

Help?

Jun 03, 2008 10:40 am

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Ganesh Ram

Many of the theories can be explained but some of them are done as corollary. And QED

Aug 15, 2008 10:13 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

At first there was the Universe.

then came the Big bang...

And then there was nothingness....

Aug 17, 2008 3:05 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Anu,
At first is only a reference point , A point before which we have no idea what would have happened

Aug 17, 2008 7:33 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lavanya Karalkar

GR you took a little more time to reply this query from Anu. Now Anu is busy with her other project as conveyed by her in a different thread

Aug 17, 2008 11:01 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

bubbles with weighted air with more meaning and in more viscous liquid raises slowly. Comapared to any bubbles blown .

I am just being humble

Sep 14, 2008 2:19 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Yeah, we are all embodiments of being down to earth and humble, arent we? ;-)

Anyhow, time to make some more noise - before and after time started...

Like i like to say..

First there was the universe
then there was a big bang
and there there was nothingness...

Cheers,

Sep 14, 2008 1:43 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BP :)

first there was First,
then all the rest.
The proton beam was sent
reach it did the otherside of the vent.
Now we wait,
to find the protons can come back straight.
And after that
when they collide,
will it quench the thirst
of those who want to know what was First.

Sep 15, 2008 4:12 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

'First' Class GRG! Lets see what happens with that particle accelerator experiment to discover the origin of time and universe!

Sep 15, 2008 5:40 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lavanya Karalkar

GR..you excel..but without Gyro sanathana dharma feels half.

Sep 23, 2008 9:43 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

This did not make the CN editorial yesterday either, so let me do this. Goes to prove that the Blackholes have not been formed in the LHC yet.

Be prepared to put up with this till the Blackholes @ LHC are reality.

Ah What a relief
for those with belief
the LHC broke down,
the fault no one will own.

It all started with those transformers warmly cool,
only to end in they becoming cooly warm;
it will take a month to fix,
and another, for the protons to mix.

But then it is time to hibernate,
so the LHC cannot accommodate;
No experiment till mid 2009,
saving the souls of yours and mine.

Private Reply to dharma bum

Sep 23, 2008 1:19 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

dharma bum

Ganesh, well penned. I am following the LHC experiment myself closely.

As for the questions that essentially are on "who created time, what is the beginning" and so on and so forth, my religious bent of mind points me towards RV 10.129... the nasadiya sUktam, also known as the hymn of creation.

What has fascinated me in this piece of scripture is the last line, which is translated, "He surely knows or maybe He does not" - this one line admits that the Creator Himself knows the origin or perhaps He does not. The hymn does not admit to any definitive or certainty in the creation process and allows for other interpretations or thought processes to co-exist with its own.

More later as we progress.

Cheers
S

Sep 24, 2008 9:26 am

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Bratzy

hmmmmmmmmm.. so..... that means, even Rig veda doesnt know about God! Interesting!

Sep 24, 2008 10:45 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

like I did say before in some previous part, in my opinion, most of our vedas were some form of communication between the men in the settled society where the social life started with the absence of a nomadic form of life.

Or it could be when the men went hunting , they did see the Nature and where trying to figure out how things happen? Just like the present are trying with the LHC.

And thus the ambiguity in Rg. The ambiguity also defends ones proposed theory. If I want to introduce a concept/theory to a group of people, I would start it ambiguous. I would say for example,

5 * Y may or may not be 25.

There will be a bunch who would think Y can be 5 the other bunch thinking Y can be any number. But my aim is to propogate the idea of multiplication. And that I got it done.

This in my opinion is what many parts of our vedas are.

Private Reply to dharma bum

Sep 24, 2008 1:02 pm

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dharma bum

Bratzy (sorry, do not know your given name)... I beg to differ with your generic observation on the rg veda.

I personally believe that the Vedas are the only surviving records of the experiences of our forefathers in their spiritual journey � a record which also contains several detailed �clues�, for want of a more appropriate word, about the nature of the path to be followed so that each and every one of us may aspire to and ultimately achieve a state of all-rounded perfection and super-conscience.

This is the goal of the Veda � the all round perfection and state of consciousness � progressing upward from one experience to another experience finally culminating in the Supreme Sat-Chit-Ananda, the triple divine worlds, the highest of which is "satya lokam" � the source of lasting peace.

Vedic thought then centrally concerns itself with the attainment of this state of immortal good and felicity and the underlying journey. This journey that we undertake towards this Vast Righteous Truth is the Vedic sacrifice � a climb from one spiritual mountain to the next, a long and arduous toil to finally arrive at the great waters of light and infinite beatitude.

Attached is a lengthy piece from my blog. It needs mention in its entirety if one were to understand the foundations of human spiritual thought from a vedic perspective � human, since this extends to all of mankind, regardless of their origins and any other affiliations they acquire in their lives.

The symbolism of the Veda depends upon the image of the life of man as a sacrifice, a journey and a battle. The ancient mystics took for their theme the spiritual life of man, but in order both to make it more concrete to themselves and to veil its secrets from the unfit, they expressed it in poetical images drawn from the outward life of their age. That life was largely an existence of herdsmen and tillers of the soil for the mass of the people varied by the wars and migrations of the clans under their kings, and in all this activity the worship of the gods had become the most solemn and magnificent element, the knot of all the rest.

For by the sacrifice were won the rain which fertilised the soil, the herds of cattle and horses necessary for their existence in peace and war, the wealth of gold, land (kshetra), retainers, fighting-men which constituted greatness and lordship, the victory in battle, safety in the journey by land and water which was so difficult and dangerous in those times of poor means of communication and loosely organised inter-tribal existence.

All the principal features of that outward life which they saw around them the mystic poets took and turned into significant images of the inner life. The life of man is represented as a sacrifice to the gods, a journey sometimes figured as a crossing of dangerous waters, sometimes as an ascent from level to level of the hill of being, and thirdly a battle against hostile nations. But these three images are not kept separate. The sacrifice is also a journey; indeed the sacrifice is itself described as traveling, as journeying to a divine goal; and the journey and the sacrifice are continually spoken of as a battle against dark powers.

If we were to keep this thought in our mind, we appreciate that the vedic rishis encouraged the practice of external worship through the Veda �to veil its secrets from the unfit� while cloaking its secret wisdom in the form of images and symbols �to make it more concrete to themselves�. An arrangement which simultaneously provided a spiritual experience to the higher aspirant and a physical experience to the lay-person.

I would like to make a general observation here � commentaries on the Rg Veda by Sayana Acharya, and later by several Western scholars including Griffith and others who based most of their interpretation of the Vedas on Sayana�s writings, focused primarily on the external physical aspects of the Veda. While doing so, they tended to stitch new fabric on an existing elaborate and orderly tapestry rather than merely ironing out the existing creases. The result leaves us with a seemingly barbarous collection of hymns that are both lofty and rich in their expression in places while appearing poorly constructed in other parts. This gap in understanding, sadly, is of our own creation.

When we understand that the Veda operates on a dual layer, we appreciate that seeming inconsistencies in this ancient corpus are rationally explained and resolved. They exist merely in form because their real meaning is to be found in the inner and veiled sense. We also appreciate that this ancient and great text is not the sole literary remnant of a primitive civilization. The Veda then becomes a chant to the powers of Light and their ascent by the force and vision of the Truth to its source and seat where it is free from the attack of the falsehood.

It is up to us to unlock this veiled secret in the several stages of our own journey. Assisting us throughout this (inner and) spiritual journey are several cosmic and other powers that progressively manifest themselves to us � they make themselves known to us in stages and when we are ready to receive them.

Peace
S

PS: As I have said many times before, here and elsewhere, end of day its a matter of personal belief and what you do to get to your own definition of nirvana.

Sep 25, 2008 10:25 am

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Ganesh Ram

What I am going to write might be simplistic and sound trivial but it might be one of the reasons as well.

Vedas and all other ways of attributing Nature were necessary to get a cohesiveness in a "settling" society.

A society where rules for a social living was shaping up.

That is why while we see vedas in the present mid-asia, we also see the egyptians and incas were building pyramids.

Oct 07, 2008 11:57 pm

re: re: re: : Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Yeah, while the Egyptians and Incas were busy talking to aliens, we were busy talking to whoever created them...

Oct 08, 2008 10:55 am

re: re: re: re: : Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

arandavanukku irundadhu ellAm payee.

Private Reply to Only God Will Judge Me! Secret Guy! S.V.N

Oct 08, 2008 12:34 pm

re: re: re: re: re: : Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Only God Will Judge Me! Secret Guy! S.V.N

Oct 08, 2008 3:09 pm

re: : Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

Dear Mr. svn !
A DEVIL WITHIN THE HUMAN !

Oct 13, 2008 9:03 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

SVN ji. . this pic does not suit this thread! :(

Oct 13, 2008 9:06 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

Its quite pleasing to see the width of your knowledge on vedas Darma bumji. very interesting read. great writing and vocab! something unusual on ryze! (with all due respects to all great writers at CNK)

"This is the goal of the Veda � the all round perfection and state of consciousness � progressing upward from one experience to another experience finally culminating in the Supreme Sat-Chit-Ananda, the triple divine worlds, the highest of which is "satya lokam" � the source of lasting peace."

Q1. This phrase appears to be very theoritical! is it practically possible to attain sat-chit ananda in reality?

Q2. All vedas speak about how to attain God realization. No veda can practically take any man to the point of realization. ( thats my take. debate?) practical wisdom is fully different from these theoritical frameworks of attaining sat-chit ananda. what say sir?

"PS: As I have said many times before, here and elsewhere, end of day its a matter of personal belief and what you do to get to your own definition of nirvana."

Q3. what if someone want to meet mr.sat-chit-ananda face to face and experience it? what if someone not interested in discussions on vedas and darmas and other framework discussions but in realising GOD. what should he do? should he devise his own framework? is that what you mean here? if he has to do on his own formula, what is the use of all these vedas? have i understood your point correctly?

I am earnestly awaiting your answers DBji. Thanks for your time and let me take some more of it from you!

Bratzy

Oct 14, 2008 9:09 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

The interesting part of this all is that, unless you achieve this state - whatever it may be termed - you will not for sure know whether or not this state exists... As you can never take others experiences as guidance.

So how are we to take their guidance to go through the various acts / non-acts as prescribed in the vedas and be sure it would lead to this one state?

The escape is of course, that if you dont get to that state, there are always a zillion other times you can try... the trial and error method I think.

What i have understood from reading of a few upanishads is essentially this - 'Leave god alone. First find out who you are'... assuming there is an answer to the question.

However, nowhere has anyone said that not finding an answer is right / wrong. Just a hint that the state is apparently the mother of all experiences, and yet a non-experience...

Essentially the most elaborate way of trying to find out ones selves, which is essentially nothing different from what one is at this moment...

Either this is the biggest con story told, or the mind simply cannot comprehend that which is beyond the mind... so if we look from the raional standpoint (standpoint of the mind), the state is impossible. That which is in the state, always is, always was, and always will be....

Enjoy folks... i like talking to myself once in a while...

Oct 14, 2008 10:12 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BP said,
" 'Leave god alone. First find out who you are'."

and that I think is how we coined the Tamil word for god as kadavuL.

if the ultimate sat-chit-Anand is attained by someone, why would he/she be ready to share? or would he/she be in that state of sharing it with others? if at all shared wouldn't it be to anything and everything that it should be shared and not just us humans?

Oct 15, 2008 4:30 am

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Lavanya Karalkar

Ganesh Ram, now you have started sounding like 'Jittu' using simple words to tell the most complex message.

PS: btw did you understand what you mentioned above?

Oct 15, 2008 8:21 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

BPg

//The interesting part of this all is that, unless you achieve this state - whatever it may be termed - you will not for sure know whether or not this state exists... As you can never take others experiences as guidance.//

!!!!!!!!!!!! If this is the case, why are we talking about a state that can be defined like how we define "infinity" in mathematics?

//So how are we to take their guidance to go through the various acts / non-acts as prescribed in the vedas and be sure it would lead to this one state?

The escape is of course, that if you dont get to that state, there are always a zillion other times you can try... the trial and error method I think.//

!!!!!!!!!!!! well said. but try what? if the goal is not clear, how can one try the goal?

//However, nowhere has anyone said that not finding an answer is right / wrong. Just a hint that the state is apparently the mother of all experiences, and yet a non-experience...//

!!!!!!!!!! if something that is neither wrong nor right, what is the fuzzy logic behind it at all? should it be experienced or non-experienced? abbe.. karna kya hai ji? kuch samaj mai nahi aathi.. for a layman who is desperate to realise himself/self/god/whatever!

//Either this is the biggest con story told, or the mind simply cannot comprehend that which is beyond the mind... so if we look from the raional standpoint (standpoint of the mind), the state is impossible. That which is in the state, always is, always was, and always will be....//

!!!!!!!!!!! eh!! what is this actually meaning? this reminds me David Godman's book - BE AS YOU ARE.

bUT, I must admit i liked this post of yours very much Bharat patji! :)

Thanks.
Brat zy

Oct 16, 2008 9:47 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

LKg
Thanks for the compliment.

My point is,

once I have attained Sat Chit Anand state, I am on a steady state where I might homogenize the very life. The differences and the similarities will fade away. This is an answer to why share it with only humans.

If i have realized the SCA state by myself, then I cannot teach it\share it to anyone else because each one of us is different, the path to SAC for each individual is different. That is why I cannot share. Something like how the father Rajini is portrayed in "Muthu".

oh btw, if SAC itself is a quality then I HAVE NOT reached the stateless end of the begining which also is begining of the end. The state of homogeniety.

Oct 16, 2008 10:58 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Another interesting thing I have noticed is that people always think our ancient ancestors had great wisdom, knowledge, morals, vision and interesting capabilities like having kids from gods (Kunti for example), seeing strange new worlds, talking to animals etc etc.

I believe that history is always distorted, especially in the past when large dissemenation of written material was not possible. Large dissemenation helps keep people truthful, as tall claims will immediately be challenged. The printing press and faster modes of transport have ensured people stay honest (not really, considering the rubbish peddled around as truth on the media)

In the past, all i needed to do was go from one village to another, perhaps 300 miles away and claim the village I came from had a great sage who walked on water, talked to animals and whatsoever I pleased... sufficient dissemenation of this information with many modifications would result in fantastic stories being told.

This isnt so easy today. Besides, I have heard intoxicated people can talk to not only animals, but even to walls and trees...

As regards having kids with the sun, wind and moon etc, i think this was just a massive coverup operation available only to rich people (i.e.: kings and queens).. if you get pregnant by mistake, oops, Surya did that...

Lastly, going by all that our scriptures point towards, especially regarding re-birth, who do you think were our ancients?..... They are us! Reborn... whatever....

Looking around at the world today, I can safely conclude that our ancients were as untruthful, immoral and undesirable as are the people on our planet today... only they were in smaller numbers and were great at story telling, something we can see even today on TV in terms of Saas bahu kind of serials or in fact the mother of all story telling - the NEWS.

Peace ;-)

Oct 17, 2008 1:31 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

dear mr.bharat!you may be right in one aspect. the history is different.for example, king raja raja chozhan had ruled borneo, subathra also under his kingdom which prsently called as indonesia. thailand ppl still carry our names.

Oct 17, 2008 8:40 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

BP said,
"...... interesting capabilities like having kids from gods (Kunti for example), seeing strange new worlds, talking to animals etc etc."

We have justified the births of all who we called/call as god.

We have already done a round of how society accepted many of this birth.

Be it Ramayana,Mahabaratha, birth of Ganesha,Muruga.

Well this is true in other religions as well. Many of these have been their either to highlight a practice that prevailed or theoritical knowledge that can be passed on to common man.

Our epics are no exceptions. For example, I used to tell whatever I knew of Krishna's pranks to my kids. Never had they listened until, I started naming the friends of Krishna as the names that my kids can recognize.

Oct 17, 2008 8:42 pm

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

I forgot to add this in the SAC reply,

Somewhere in the four parts of SD there is a trail on

Kandavar vindilar, Vindavar Kandilar.

Oct 18, 2008 4:52 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

That essentially is:
===================
One who knows says not.
One who says knows not...

Empty vessels make a lot of noise...thats what this forum is for.

Oct 18, 2008 6:46 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

Hahaha.. GRg, BPg. you both finally said something thatz an absolute fact!

im sure nobody who discussed so much of dharma, vedantha, Gita and all upanishads had seen Mr. sat chit ananda anywhere in their life!

Accepting and facing the bare truths bravely is first step to realise. That way, your bold statements here constructed first step to SCA state! (SCA = sat chit ananda)

ippadikku
Bratzaanandamayi devikamba

Oct 18, 2008 1:01 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

dear mr,bharat! you said:Empty vessels make a lot of noise...thats what this forum is for.
i humbly wish to mention : a vessel / cauldron full of food also can be served to many people!

Oct 18, 2008 1:55 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

dear mr.gyro!
gita has a golden saga and still refered and respected.there is a 6 year old boy in pondicherry who got prize for chanting gita. i created a blog in yahoo! for this for the first time forgetting my routine police subjects. not only you, i request all cn friends to follow this link:
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-2VDcWBMyc6958mCWnsETLQreIebtxLem_Pg-?cq=1

Oct 18, 2008 2:47 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

a full vessel, it is believed, would serve people?

isnt remaining silent more fun?

Oct 19, 2008 10:08 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

pl. note what i mentioned earlier:
a vessel / cauldron full of food also can be served to many people!

Oct 20, 2008 1:06 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

exactly what i said....

assuming you would like to serve people...

wouldnt it be more fun not to, and watch their reaction?

Oct 20, 2008 3:33 am

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bratzy

Pudumai BondG.

BPg is talking about 'empty vessels' not vessels filled with food & water!!

Oct 20, 2008 3:16 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Gyro

Dear Pudumai Bala - Thanks for sharing the news in your blog of 6 years old boy - Rahul Rajagopalan chanting slogas of Gita in comepetion and won the first prize. when even ordinary sanskrit word is difficult to pronounce at that age I always wonder the reason how this could be possible unless the accumulated knowledge is transferred from previous birth.

Oct 20, 2008 4:07 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

brat! you did not get my point! i am very busy now; i' ll pm later!

Oct 20, 2008 4:12 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

thanks a million gyro sir! hope other friends also might gave viewed this link.

Private Reply to sujatha suresh

Oct 20, 2008 5:15 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

sujatha suresh

Interesting!(3)..... even I read about the 6yr old... Wow!
SS

Oct 21, 2008 7:38 am

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lavanya Karalkar

Pudumai we have to thank you for bringing Gyro back to the board,

Oct 21, 2008 5:22 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

post your Aye's and Nay's for creating Part V and continuing there

Oct 21, 2008 9:16 pm

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Bharat P

yea, Ram has been hibernating for years now....
welcome back...

Oct 22, 2008 4:48 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

LK! i have to thank you for thanking me after a long time and the credit goes to dear mr. gyro.

Oct 22, 2008 11:09 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Nandri oruvarukku seidhakAl
annandri yendru tharungol yena vAEndA,
nindru thaLarA vaLar thengu
thAn unda neerai thalaiyAlae thAn tharuthlAl
- auviyAr supposed to have said the last two lines when she was about 5 years old.

Had been in a similar boat as Rahul, now I wonder, if reciting hymns and slokas in sanskrit would really make one understand what is being said on them. No this is not belittling (if there is such a word) Rahul, rather it is more setting up expectations by people around him.

Private Reply to Chitrabala Krishnan

Oct 22, 2008 12:49 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Chitrabala Krishnan

Interested in knowing more about Upanishad and Buddhism can anyone suggest some books

Oct 22, 2008 2:23 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lavanya Karalkar

GR? now from Rahul came and which boat you and he riding?

Oct 22, 2008 10:51 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

LK(g), some eons ago I had the opportunity to enter competitions for suprabatham and all others in school as well as at the TTD. Never have won prizes consistently. Look at me now.

That, my dear is what I am talking about. I am of the opinion, it is not always one morsel of rice is a sample for a pot full.

Oct 23, 2008 12:10 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Chitrabala, the Ramakrishna mission bookshop in Mylapore (if it is still there) is a decent place to pick up books on Upanishads.. You can also pick up books at Giri Traders. Of course I am sure every big bookshop in Chennai will stock atleast some of these books.

If you can understand Sanskrit, even better... as you can come to your own conclusions, rather than stick to the translations in english or tamil... Sanskrit is a funny language, like all languages - one sentence can have a zillion contexts and a word can have a zillion meanings based on context.

Best of luck ;-)

Oct 24, 2008 3:53 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

thanks a million dear mr. ganesh ram, gyro and others!

i started to write stories @ the age of 7. got prize for drawing competition from lt. governor of pondicherry @ the age of 12. but i did not chant gita in sanskrit when i was 6 years old. that's why yahoo blog on rahul.
advance diwali greetings to all!

Oct 25, 2008 1:14 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Not everyone does. It so happened that I had a patti(grandma) who passively taught me sanskirt(thru tamil) and tamil prayers. I said passively because,neither I nor she did make an effort to learn or teach. She sang and I heard and repeated. She also made me think objectively. I think I wrote about that in Part II or III of this thread.

Should winning a competition or by itself winning a necessity?
I am not sure.

Does the world need to know how much of knowledge I possess? I don't know.

Oct 26, 2008 12:56 pm

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

@ the age of 7 and 12 how i would have known winning the competition is a necessity?
my teachers, principal etc., nominated my name and told me to participate!

Nov 01, 2008 1:12 am

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Sanskrit does grow on you though...

Nov 07, 2008 2:46 pm

re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

Any language would. It is how hot the iron is when hit constantly that matters.

Nov 07, 2008 4:47 pm

re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lavanya Karalkar

Ofcourse winning matters when you participate. But losing should not matter then only you will be able to win further.

Nov 08, 2008 1:34 am

re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Or lose further...

Nov 08, 2008 2:06 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

where there is win will there not be a loss ? what would the kid that lost think? would it be engraved in his green mind that loosing is what the kid is born for?

Nov 08, 2008 4:43 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Lavanya Karalkar

Ganesh Ram, that means, in order not to cause any hurt in the child's mind, you will make her/him avoid participation? We have imbibe in their minds that losing is also part of the game. You can make them see positively by telling them, if you are in the losing group, you are in the mejority group. Have you seen the MTR ad? The mom will be making gulab jamoons and father will ask what is the occasion and mom will reply, "our son came second in the race" and when the father congratulaes the child and asks him 'how many children ran?". The child in a coll voice will say "Two".

Yes the child will be hurt in the first instinct on losing but that will also make him/ her determined to go further. Ok Bharat Pat, as you say it can lead to losing further too. But what it matters? The joy of participation is always there which should be imbibed in the cbild's mind. If you witness the music competition for children that is held in Surya TV from 8.00 pm to 8.30 pm, the judges without ridiculing their performance makes them understand what are the errors the children are committing and you won't believe the amount of talent the children show. What is said to them is ' ok! you have lost but the whole world saw you performing and you can improve a little bit more and next year you will in the winning team". That is the way it should be taken.

Nov 08, 2008 10:23 am

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Ganesh Ram

LK(g),
if we are saying all are winners in one way or other, then why a competition at all?

looking from the other angle, the winner's, that kid thinks that all effort put is only to get recognized a teeny weeny bit more than the kid who lost. That would make the kid work less in future competition.

Competition is not a weighing scale, tharAsu to be precise, like the one with the vegetable vendor where you need to be sure that both pans are at same level. It is more like the modern scales, with a single pan that tells you what the weight (power) of an individual is.

LK(g) takes the place of Gyro ;-)

Nov 08, 2008 10:30 am

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Lavanya Karalkar

I am sure when you say "LK(g) takes the place of Gyro' you mean that 'what Ganesh Ram says, Gyro has to retort and vice versa' na??

Nov 09, 2008 10:37 am

re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Pudumai Balakrishnan Balakrishnan

LK! glad to see after diwali!
1. winning is not a necessity; but participation is a must.
2. 3 film personalities sivaji ganesan, jai sankar and amitabh bachan were failed in audtion test of all india radio. the same air made special programmes of the same film stars after they bacame popular!

Nov 09, 2008 6:03 pm

re: re: Sanadhana Dharma Part IV

Bharat P

Ganesh, Ram, etc... anyone wants to start SD5?

Here are links to the first 3 and this one (4):
SD1: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=598540&confid=660
SD2: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=692228&confid=660
SD3: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=773241&confid=660
SD4: http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=821900&confid=660

Ram started SD1 on Dec6, 2005.. not sure why, though the date sure has significance...

But yeah, Someone can go ahead and start SD5 please...